I recently got an 8-3/8” Model 25-5 and also have a 25-10. Sierra shows two sets of data for .45 Colt: 14,000 psi and 30,000 psi. They explicitly state that the higher pressure is not suitable for a S&W 25-5. However, the Model 25s have to be more robust than a SAA dont they?
.45 Colt Chamber Pressure for Model 25
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AJ
US Veteran
The 30,000 PSI is for the Ruger Blackhawks and Vaqueros. The 14,000 PSI is for the Colt SAA's and the New Vaqueros. I have a Colt Model 1909 U.S.Army, a Model 25-9 and a New Vaquero so I stay with the 14,000 PSI pressures. The cylinder notch for locking is directly over the chambers on the S&W 25's, the Colts and the New Vaqueros (mine are) and on the Blackhawks they are in between the chambers. This leaves more steel to give stronger chambers on the Rugers. Hence the ability to withstand higher chamber pressures or at least that is how it was explained to me. If I am wrong someone will be along to tell us different.
The New Vaqueros are a slightly smaller frame and cylinder.
The New Vaqueros are a slightly smaller frame and cylinder.
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Hair Trigger
US Veteran
I have a M25-5 and two Uberti SA revolvers, The Ubertis can handle loads equivalent to what the M25 can. I load the same for all three, even use the same load in my Henry lever action rifle. I use a 250 grain RNFP plated bullet, and either 10 grains of Accurate #5 or 8.5 grains of Power Pistol. Gives me around 785 fps in the S&W and a tad over 800 in the Uberti's (4" barrel on the M25, 5-1/2 and 7-1/2 on the SA's. Just under 1000 fps in the rifle. The loads feel mild, recoil in the handguns is less than the .41M I also shoot with 210 grain bullets and I reduce the load in it to around 1200 fps.
Those velocities are plenty for target shooting or bowling pins, and as loud as the clang is at 50 yards on steel, that 250 pill would probably go through a whitetail at that distance.
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STORMINORMAN
Member
There's an article (easily searched) by John Taffin in Guns&Ammo that might help... It gives a pretty good explanation re: Colt pressures.
IMHO, the "Ruger ONLY" Loads are just that: for the firearms commonly listed, like Super Blackhawks, RedHawks, TCs ,etc.
Cheers!
P.S. On the other hand, some think the Model 25 is equally as... Uh, "Robust"(?), as the Model 29, and many shoot 45acp +P (23,000 psi) in those so calibered. After all, it is an N-Frame.
IMHO, the "Ruger ONLY" Loads are just that: for the firearms commonly listed, like Super Blackhawks, RedHawks, TCs ,etc.
Cheers!
P.S. On the other hand, some think the Model 25 is equally as... Uh, "Robust"(?), as the Model 29, and many shoot 45acp +P (23,000 psi) in those so calibered. After all, it is an N-Frame.
DR505
US Veteran
The April 2022 No. 337 issue of Handloader has a Brian Pearce article on reloading .45 Colt for the Model 25 (23,000 PSI). He states that a S&W engineer told him the Model 25 cylinder in .45 Colt has the same strength and hardening as the .45 ACP variety, which is cleared up to 23,000 PSI for .45 ACP +P.
Additionally, John Linebaugh said it is the frame strength of the 25, not the cylinder, that is the issue. Heavy Ruger type loads in a S&W Model 25 stretch the non-hardened frame and batter the gun, putting it out of time and causing issues rather quickly.
If you keep loads less than 23,000 PSI sources indicate you are okay. As always, only use load data from a reputable source and work up slowly.
For shooting targets why go with more recoil, wear, noise, and spend more on extra powder? For hunting, sure.
Additionally, John Linebaugh said it is the frame strength of the 25, not the cylinder, that is the issue. Heavy Ruger type loads in a S&W Model 25 stretch the non-hardened frame and batter the gun, putting it out of time and causing issues rather quickly.
If you keep loads less than 23,000 PSI sources indicate you are okay. As always, only use load data from a reputable source and work up slowly.
For shooting targets why go with more recoil, wear, noise, and spend more on extra powder? For hunting, sure.
There are three pressure levels for .45 Colt:
- 14,000 psi for older .45 Colts;
- 21,000 psi for newer modern era smokeless powder .45 Colts; and
-30,000-32,000 psi load for Ruger only and T/C handguns, as well as the Winchester Model 1892 and Rossi 92 lever action rifles.
Those 30,000-32,000 psi loads give essentially .44 magnum level performance. But frankly case life at higher pressures in the .45 Colt is very short. The .45 Colt chamber was made with a .007” taper from base to case mouth to facilitate extraction from black powder fouled chambers and those chamber dimensions persist today for the parallel case wall .45 Colt.
That means the case expands in an increasing and linear manner from mouth to base which stretches the case walls significantly at higher pressures. At 30,000 psi you can expect spider cracks in the case walls in as little as 3 or 4 reloads. At most you’ll be lucky to get 5-7 loads in the case before it’s scrap.
In other words, if you want .44 Mag performance from a .45 Colt, just get a .44 Mag.
——
The S&W 25, like the 625, runs just fine at 21,000 psi .45 ACP pressures. I would not push it to 23,000 psi .45 ACP +P pressures as S&W doesn’t recommend it for the 625.
And there’s no real point.
- 14,000 psi for older .45 Colts;
- 21,000 psi for newer modern era smokeless powder .45 Colts; and
-30,000-32,000 psi load for Ruger only and T/C handguns, as well as the Winchester Model 1892 and Rossi 92 lever action rifles.
Those 30,000-32,000 psi loads give essentially .44 magnum level performance. But frankly case life at higher pressures in the .45 Colt is very short. The .45 Colt chamber was made with a .007” taper from base to case mouth to facilitate extraction from black powder fouled chambers and those chamber dimensions persist today for the parallel case wall .45 Colt.
That means the case expands in an increasing and linear manner from mouth to base which stretches the case walls significantly at higher pressures. At 30,000 psi you can expect spider cracks in the case walls in as little as 3 or 4 reloads. At most you’ll be lucky to get 5-7 loads in the case before it’s scrap.
In other words, if you want .44 Mag performance from a .45 Colt, just get a .44 Mag.
——
The S&W 25, like the 625, runs just fine at 21,000 psi .45 ACP pressures. I would not push it to 23,000 psi .45 ACP +P pressures as S&W doesn’t recommend it for the 625.
And there’s no real point.
Hair Trigger
US Veteran
Agreed. .45 Colt is fun to shoot at the lower pressure loads, is accurate and has plenty of energy out to typical handgun distances if you want to take small to medium game. If you want to put your hand to sleep or have the supersonic bang of a magnum load, get a .41M or .44M and have at it. No point in beating a nice gun to death.
,I don't know the answer but many times, albeit wording differs, the question arises is an N frame, an N frame always an N frame? If the answer is yes, why would a 23,000 PSI load in a Model 25 stretch the frame when a 34,000 PSI load in a Model 29 is a working load? There is a difference of 0.024 case diameter between the two calibers as concerns back thrust which would be compensated for by the 13,000 lower PSI in the .45 load. So is the metallurgy or heat treatment among N frames different? If it is, with the Model 25 being of less tensile strength due to these factors, "I" would consider 18-20,000 PSI to be the working pressure for a model 25
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OP
Thanks guys. I wasn’t planning on being the next Elmer Keith 
So far I’ve only made .45 Colt Cowboy loads with W-231 and 250 grain RNFP lead bullets. However, three sets of load data at 14k, 20-23k, and 30k make sense to me.
If I feel the need for a real hand cannon, my Dan Wesson 744-VH with the 8” ported barrel is perfect.
Chip
So far I’ve only made .45 Colt Cowboy loads with W-231 and 250 grain RNFP lead bullets. However, three sets of load data at 14k, 20-23k, and 30k make sense to me. If I feel the need for a real hand cannon, my Dan Wesson 744-VH with the 8” ported barrel is perfect.
Chip
I am going to take the other view in opposition to most of the posts in this thread
My 25/325/625 Revolvers chambered for the 45ACP cartridge regularly fire 45 SUPER. The 45 SUPER runs at 28,000 PSI.
It does not matter how much thinner the metal is under the stop notch. I know that this reason for using lower pressure ammunition has become almost legendary thanks to the influence of the Internet. As long as it can contain the pressure it can contain the pressure regardless of thickness
While I have never tried to load 45 caliber ammo to 30,000 PSI or above in my revolvers, I certainly would be comfortable with pressure levels between the Colt SAA listings and the Ruger only listing
Remember that we live in a severely litigious society here in America thanks to our freedoms. As such most factories are very hesitant to officially tell anybody that a product can be used above its specifications. Obviously they are worried about the person who goes too far and damages his new item or even himself and then sues because he believes somebody at the factory told him it was okay
My 25/325/625 Revolvers chambered for the 45ACP cartridge regularly fire 45 SUPER. The 45 SUPER runs at 28,000 PSI.
It does not matter how much thinner the metal is under the stop notch. I know that this reason for using lower pressure ammunition has become almost legendary thanks to the influence of the Internet. As long as it can contain the pressure it can contain the pressure regardless of thickness
While I have never tried to load 45 caliber ammo to 30,000 PSI or above in my revolvers, I certainly would be comfortable with pressure levels between the Colt SAA listings and the Ruger only listing
Remember that we live in a severely litigious society here in America thanks to our freedoms. As such most factories are very hesitant to officially tell anybody that a product can be used above its specifications. Obviously they are worried about the person who goes too far and damages his new item or even himself and then sues because he believes somebody at the factory told him it was okay
GypsmJim
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The operative word is THINK.
Once in a meeting with the VP of Engineering I made the comment: "I Think.....". He basted me back....."You gotta stop thinking.....I only care about what you KNOW"
Hair Trigger
US Veteran
The M25 and M57 and M29 frames are the same size, but the steel is hardened in the magnum caliber guns to withstand magnum pressures. .45 Colt was originally a black powder cartridge and once smokeless powder replaced it, they were operating at a higher pressure than black powder presented. Since it is still considered (in the smokeless powder world) a low pressure cartridge, the guns were not beefed up for higher pressures. The Ruger and Thompson guns are engineered for higher pressure ammo.
A bit hard to believe that S&W produces N frame receivers to two different hardness levels. What proof do you have of this.
I frequently shoot (+P) handloads in my 25/325/625's, both 45ACP & 45 Colt models, & periodically shoot handloads which are loaded up to 26K-28k PSI (45 Super pressure) levels & I've not seen any ill affects from them.
All S&W N-frame revolver (.357, .41, .44, .45) cylinders, regardless of caliber, have a diameter of ~1.710".
At it's thinnest point, the cylinder lock notch, my S&W 45 revolvers average .030" thick (outside chamber wall thickness minus the lock notch's depth).
My S&W 44 Magnum's average .039" thickness.
That's makes the 45s ~23% less in thickness.
Making a few calculation (& some assumptions), if the 44Mag cylinder is designed for SAAMI 36K psi (40K cup) loads & the 45acp cylinder is ~77% as thick at the thinnest point, that puts it right at the ~28K psi mark.
(- 44 Magnum SAAMI Proof loads run ~50K psi -)
(- 45ACP (+P) SAAMI Proof loads run ~32K psi -)
.
Starline says this of their 45 Colt cases: "Our .45 Colt brass has been tested to .44 Magnum pressures in gun systems suitable for such loads."
When I had my Ruger SRH .454 Casull I shot more S-L 45 Colt case loads in it than 454C cases. I loaded them, on occasion, to just under starting 454C loads without issues. (Obviously these loads ARE NOT for 45 Colt revolvers.) Hornady cases are just as strong.
Definitely case strength needn't be an issue in the 45 Colt.
.
S&W .45 revolvers are the only non-magnum caliber/cartridges in the N-frame. Seems hard to imagine the factory would treat frames & cylinders for these few models (now discontinued) differently than all the others coming down the manufacturing line.
.
All S&W N-frame revolver (.357, .41, .44, .45) cylinders, regardless of caliber, have a diameter of ~1.710".
At it's thinnest point, the cylinder lock notch, my S&W 45 revolvers average .030" thick (outside chamber wall thickness minus the lock notch's depth).
My S&W 44 Magnum's average .039" thickness.
That's makes the 45s ~23% less in thickness.
Making a few calculation (& some assumptions), if the 44Mag cylinder is designed for SAAMI 36K psi (40K cup) loads & the 45acp cylinder is ~77% as thick at the thinnest point, that puts it right at the ~28K psi mark.
(- 44 Magnum SAAMI Proof loads run ~50K psi -)
(- 45ACP (+P) SAAMI Proof loads run ~32K psi -)
.
Starline says this of their 45 Colt cases: "Our .45 Colt brass has been tested to .44 Magnum pressures in gun systems suitable for such loads."
When I had my Ruger SRH .454 Casull I shot more S-L 45 Colt case loads in it than 454C cases. I loaded them, on occasion, to just under starting 454C loads without issues. (Obviously these loads ARE NOT for 45 Colt revolvers.) Hornady cases are just as strong.
Definitely case strength needn't be an issue in the 45 Colt.
.
S&W .45 revolvers are the only non-magnum caliber/cartridges in the N-frame. Seems hard to imagine the factory would treat frames & cylinders for these few models (now discontinued) differently than all the others coming down the manufacturing line.
.
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bruce381
Member
per John Linbaugh
"In reality the Model 25-5 is about 80% as strong as the Model 29 in the cylinder area. The frames are the same and are designed for a 40,000 psi load level even though we know this is
a bit more than they are happy with. It's too bad S&W built a 40,00 psi cylinder and installed it in a 30,000 psi frame, so to speak. (note: since this writing S&W has worked on the
problem of the cylinder unlatching and rolling back under recoil after it gets a bit worn) The 25-5 in .45 Colt is safe to 80% of the 40,000 psi of the .44 Magnum Model 29. This allows a
load of 32,000 psi in this frame. I have shot hundreds of the 32,000 psi class loads listed at the beginning of this article in several Model 25-5's. Recoil is heavy due to the S&W "hump" on
the grip, but I do not see these loads as being dangerous in this fine gun. I do consider 32,000 to be ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM for this gun and prefer to hold my personal loads to 5% under
those listed loads for approximately 25,000 psi. I carry a S&W 4" in .45 Colt daily and shoot a 260 gr. Keith at 900 fps for general duty. When I saddle up and go into the hills I pack the
same gun with a 310 gr. NEI Keith over 23 gr. H-110. This gives me about 1080 fps and all the punch I need for anything on our mountain. As with any gun and load data, work up
carefully. I assume responsibility only for the ammo I myself assemble."
"In reality the Model 25-5 is about 80% as strong as the Model 29 in the cylinder area. The frames are the same and are designed for a 40,000 psi load level even though we know this is
a bit more than they are happy with. It's too bad S&W built a 40,00 psi cylinder and installed it in a 30,000 psi frame, so to speak. (note: since this writing S&W has worked on the
problem of the cylinder unlatching and rolling back under recoil after it gets a bit worn) The 25-5 in .45 Colt is safe to 80% of the 40,000 psi of the .44 Magnum Model 29. This allows a
load of 32,000 psi in this frame. I have shot hundreds of the 32,000 psi class loads listed at the beginning of this article in several Model 25-5's. Recoil is heavy due to the S&W "hump" on
the grip, but I do not see these loads as being dangerous in this fine gun. I do consider 32,000 to be ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM for this gun and prefer to hold my personal loads to 5% under
those listed loads for approximately 25,000 psi. I carry a S&W 4" in .45 Colt daily and shoot a 260 gr. Keith at 900 fps for general duty. When I saddle up and go into the hills I pack the
same gun with a 310 gr. NEI Keith over 23 gr. H-110. This gives me about 1080 fps and all the punch I need for anything on our mountain. As with any gun and load data, work up
carefully. I assume responsibility only for the ammo I myself assemble."
I have been shooting my S&W 45 colts at the 23,000psi level for a long time.
DR505
US Veteran
I kept an article from Mr. Linebaugh. Seems like the website I found it on has taken it down, so went to the Internet Wayback site and found it again. In it, when referencing the 25-5, he says,
I have read a lot of Mr Linebaugh's writing and I believe he was speaking about loads ABOVE 32,000 psi when it came to frame stretch. Notice the statement about model 29s: It's too bad S&W built a 40,00 psi cylinder and installed it in a 30,000 psi frame and he saw a model 29 go out in the realm of 1,000 hot handloads.
Lets look at the old Walker Colt which fired a 140gr round ball at 1200fps and a 250gr slug at 1000fps. It may have been using black powder, but it had no back strap whatsoever and the barrel and loading assembly was held on the frame by a wedge that passes through the cylinder axle. Ya, the whole thing was held together by a wedge through less than a 3/8" spindle. Way way less than the mass of a N frame even if it is milled out for the trigger and hammer group.
The S&W N frames may well suffer frame stretch with 35,000psi loads and real heavy bullets but, they are still not "weak" and with loads with bullets under 260gr ant 25,000psi they will last for a very log time. 45 colt OR 44 mag
I see the statement if you want a magnum get a model 29 all the time. I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT IF you fire a lot of 240 gr 36,000psi loads in a model 29 it won't be in as good as shape as a model 25 with the same number of 250 gr 25,000psi loads
Lets look at the old Walker Colt which fired a 140gr round ball at 1200fps and a 250gr slug at 1000fps. It may have been using black powder, but it had no back strap whatsoever and the barrel and loading assembly was held on the frame by a wedge that passes through the cylinder axle. Ya, the whole thing was held together by a wedge through less than a 3/8" spindle. Way way less than the mass of a N frame even if it is milled out for the trigger and hammer group.
The S&W N frames may well suffer frame stretch with 35,000psi loads and real heavy bullets but, they are still not "weak" and with loads with bullets under 260gr ant 25,000psi they will last for a very log time. 45 colt OR 44 mag
I see the statement if you want a magnum get a model 29 all the time. I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT IF you fire a lot of 240 gr 36,000psi loads in a model 29 it won't be in as good as shape as a model 25 with the same number of 250 gr 25,000psi loads
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