45 Schofield Gov Rev “Winchester” Reloading tool

[BMur]

I’m trying to prove that Winchester Reloading tools were used by the U.S. Military beyond 1900. Winchester is documented as not winning the contract during the trials of 1879-1884. However, it is clearly documented that the various Forts etc preferred the Winchester Tools over the Frankford Arsenal sets.

The rare Schofield caliber tool seen in Photo 1 has been heavily machined and modified by the U.S. Army. Notice the additional studs, bored and sleeved primer pocket, bored threaded and inserted loading boss.

I’ve actually seen this modification before but didn’t put it together with the Military Arsenals doing the work. It’s obvious now that they did the work.

My question is does anyone have one of these in their collection?

Murph

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I am excited to see you start this thread, I hope it is as informative as the Frankfort Arsenal thread.

I find it interesting that the Army would modify the commercial product, instead of make their own. Back when the cost of a small quantity item was a real concern!

Ivan

 

[BMur]

Reloading tools

I knew you’d like this thread Ivan.

I was finished with the Frankford Arsenal Tools when I noticed in the Military logs there were several orders placed late in the trials for Winchester Tools. The Winchester tools were a large part of the trials and in fact went through changes that were recommended by U. S. Army personnel.

I also noticed that the various arsenals, batteries, companies, etc that were involved in the trials really liked the Winchester tool.

The Army beat the heck out of the tools and used them so much that they often broke them.

Photo 1 is the part that would brake on the 1882 Winchester tool. The shell extractor. The Military log called it “ Winchester Teeth”. It took many rounds loaded before that beefy extractor broke!

Photo 2 is the earlier 1880 tool with “claw” extractor. That design would fail to extract the shell after many rounds due to wear. Not an easy fix on that design. So a new design extractor was fabricated and shows up in the 1882 model tool.

Anyway, the Frankford Arsenal would send the Fort etc a new part for the 1882 tool if broken after ordering it from Winchester.

In my opinion after the Trials Winchester wasn’t happy that they didn’t get the contract and told the Army no more parts. “ Buy the Tool”!

So the Arsenals etc basically repaired the broken tools themselves by modifying them. It fits like a glove.

I’ve seen this exact same modification on a Winchester 1882 tool in 38 Special. That would be the later M&P.

I assumed it was someone that had some time on their hands? But this is actually amazing time consuming machine work. It took many hours to modify this tool on a lathe.

Murph

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I find modifications on the twentieth century reloading equipment also. Time was a commodity that there was an abundance of in the time before TV! Cash on the other hand was in short supply even in good times.

What you are seeing is the fruit of many failures! It is the 1 in 100 success that becomes the next generation in the production series. Think in terms of cartridge development, the useful/efficient wildcats become production rounds, sometimes quick; like 22 Hornet and sometimes very very slowly, like 17 Hornet!

I was going through, "Early Loading Tools and Bullet Moulds," by R.H.Chamberlain (Pioneer Press Copyright 1988) and it shows a second model Winchester tool "with the inproved extractor" but gave no reference to Army Ordinance or even a date! You have already opened my eyes with this thread!

I am hoping you can get more enthusiasts to contribute to our joint knowledge base.

As a side note, The Ideal company earliest patents are from February and December 1884. They didn't get in on the early trials, yet much of the literature refers to "Armory" model and talks of military units using their equipment. Must be Malita, police or foreign militaries. Something never brought up in the historical sections of Lyman #45 and #49.

Thanks again,

Ivan

 

[BMur]

Ideal Tools

Ivan,
I think SGT Barlows first approved patent was 1882. It’s actually the patent applied to this 1882 Winchester tool. In fact these trials were the beginnings of SGT. Barlows Ideal Company.
Why the Military didn’t buy or invest in his tools is unknown.

It’s kind of upsetting really when you read the Military records. These Big Companies that engaged in Military Trials actually took advantage of Veterans ideas. Often patenting them and making a lot of money! SGT. Barlow was smart enough to patent his ideas and made himself a sizable fortune. Most Veterans likely got very little for their brilliant design improvements. Sort of like today. Come up with an idea to save the Company that you work for a million dollars and they show their appreciation by giving you a $10 Gift certificate at some fast food place.

Murph

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

see, I'm learning a bunch already!

Any day you learn something, is a good day!

Ivan

 

[BMur]

SGT John Barlow

Here is a historic photo of the then “retired” SGT John Barlow demonstrating his reloading tools and skills to the U.S. Army. He is the older gentleman in the center looking at the camera.

This is much later circa 1900ish. Notice the 30/40 Krag rifles and the late model patented bullet lubing tool on the right side of the loading bench. Bottle neck empty rifle cartridges lined up on the loading table. By this time bench tools were now the primary method for reloading. Hand tools were still being used at the remote locations.

This photo gives you this sense of importance to reloading technology at that time. You can witness the focused interest in the Army Vets. Also a good solid image of how common the practice was during that era. It wasn’t a novelty. It was a required and trained procedure.

Murph

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I started loading in 1979 at about age 23. As I visited older reloader's basements and garages, that basic bench was repeated over and over! My current bench is 5 feet long, by 30 inches deep and very similarly constructed!. No drawer, but a shelf underneath. My lubrisizer and a single stage press are at the left end. Mister (or maybe he preferred Sargent) Barlow wouldn't be too happy to see the other brands of equipment! That is until I open the filing cabinet drawer and he saw the Ideal/Lyman 310 tools. 4 handles and about 35 die sets. But I'm thinking he would be very interested in my home-made dies for jacketed bullet diameter reduction. Also my 6 dozen of Ideal/Lyman molds.

In these later Lyman books, written post Vietnam, I see a very distinct "bent" away from anything military! That lead me to believe there was little or no connection to the Army'

In the "Full Table View" of the loading bench, That appears to be The Ideal Armory Outfit and retailed for $50, it had a 75 lead revisor for casting! Bench mounted bullet and case sizers, a 6-gang bullet mold and a number 5 powder measure (and probably a number 16 Ideal Handbook)

I'm looking forward to seeing the influence of the military on reloading and the commercial influence on the military's practices.

Ivan

 

[TripleLock]

FWIW, the photo of John Barlow was taken at the Annual Trophy Match held at Sea Girt, New Jersey, in August of 1905. In addition to the bullet lubricating press (known at that time as the "No.1 Bullet Sizer and Lubricator) to which attention has been directed, there is also visible the distinctive shape of the newly-produced "No.2 Bullet Sizer and Lubricator" which had been developed specifically for use by military armories as the No.1 was found to be not quite up to the strain of great volume of use to which the armories put them. The No.1 weighed in at about 4 pounds; the No.2 tipped the scales at 25 lbs.

The No.2 sizer and lubricator is readily identifiable by its distinctive double-ended handle of its pressure screw and its massive frame (based off of Ideal's bench-mounted Armory Press introduced about a year earlier). The man at the right, with the bowler hat, has his hand on the operating handle of the No.2.

Although listed in Ideal (and later Marlin, then Lyman-Ideal) catalogues into the 1930s, the No.2 is something of a rare bird... only a very few, less than five, are known to exist.

First image is the same that appears in Murph's post above; the
second image is from Ideal Handbook No.17 (1906); the third image comes from "Shooting & Fishing" magazine, August 17, 1905; and last but not least, the fourth image is a photo of a No.2 Sizer and Lubricator that came up for sale and into my possession about four years ago.
Jim

 

[BMur]

Great Stuff!

Wow Jim,
That’s a beauty! I’ve never seen one of the No. 2 bench lube/sizing tools.

Thanks for the info on the photo.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

... the fourth image is a photo of a No.2 Sizer and Lubricator that came up for sale and into my possession about four years ago.
Jim

Did it come with the 1-2-3 blocks?


Cheers,
Webb

 

[TripleLock]

Did it come with the 1-2-3 blocks?

Umm, no. Those were already on hand. I used the 1-2-3 blocks under the beast (and the 1x2x12-inch parallels under the blocks) to allow clearance for the die adjustment and the rods and cross-piece that extend below the bottom of the press (look close between the blocks), so it would sit upright on the desk when I took that photo.

Not entirely certain why that photo is rotated 90 degrees counter-clockwise, everything was vertical when I took it.

Jim

 

[BMur]

Arsenal Modified

I was hoping that someone had at least seen one or remembered seeing one of these altered military issued Winchester tools.

The modification sticks out with the additional bolts and flange. I know I’ve seen at least 3 examples but I can’t remember the details.

Murph

 

[Model19man]

Picture right side up:

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

I used the 1-2-3 blocks under the beast (and the 1x2x12-inch parallels under the blocks) to allow clearance for the die adjustment and the rods and cross-piece that extend below the bottom of the press (look close between the blocks), so it would sit upright on the desk when I took that photo.

I figured that. Just a little ribbing. Are you an HSM?


Cheers,
Webb

 

[TripleLock]

I was hoping that someone had at least seen one or remembered seeing one of these altered military issued Winchester tools.

The modification sticks out with the additional bolts and flange. I know I’ve seen at least 3 examples but I can’t remember the details.

Murph

I've seen that "bolts and flange" arrangement before. I'm almost certain it was some cartridge related tool from Frankford Arsenal, but, like you, the details of where and what and when escape me.

Jim

 

[BMur]

Recollection

Thanks Jim,

That does help. At my age, you tend to lean on others for help with remembering.

One of the others I’ve seen I’m sure was a 38 special. Which would be a legitimate caliber for Military use beginning in 1899. Kind of late for these hand tools but not really since the 38 Special was introduced in Black powder.

The other one I can’t remember the caliber just that it was a mess of rust like mine but still historically important to ironing out these Frankford Arsenal Tools as issued.

The calibers I would expect to find with this modification would be:

50 GOV
45 GOV Rifle
45 GOV Revolver
38 Long Colt
38 Special
45 C
Possibly 30/40 Krag
And 30/03 & 30/06


Murph