.45 'Short' Colt

[mkk41]

Yes Virginia , there was such an animal.

Interesting article. 45 Short Colt

Also , I was looking thru my Barnes COTW and under obsolete handgun cartridges , I found the .45 Colt Govt. This is the hybrid with the length of the .45 S&W Schofield and the rim of the .45 Colt. For those who don't know , the .45 Schofield cartridge had a bigger rim for reliability with the star extractor of the Smith break-top , but the rims were too big to allow loading adjacent chambers in the Colt SAA cylinder , rendering it a 3-shooter. This round would fit both guns , but would slip under the star extractor of the S&W.

I have a couple of these rounds , but never found any text on them till now.

 

[DWalt]

"the .45 Schofield cartridge had a bigger rim for reliability with the star extractor of the Smith break-top"
The only dimensional difference between the .45 Colt and the .45 Schofield is that the latter has a shorter case length. This is because the Schofield revolver used a shorter cylinder than the SAA. Except for the first few years, the Army used only the .45 Schofield for both the SAA and the Schofield revolvers. The Model 1909 cartridge, made only at Frankford Arsenal, is actually the only .45 Colt case with a larger rim. Just why the rim was made larger is a subject of some debate, but the commonly-held belief is because the Army felt it would provide more positive extraction in the Model 1909 Colt revolver (The Model 1909 is essentially the Colt New Service revolver), and was a stopgap measure adopted until the Model 1911 pistol was issued. Most M1909 revolvers went to the Philippines. There was a shorter version of the Colt (and Schofield) .45 cartridges made up for the Army pistol trials of 1906-07, but it was never adopted or produced commercially.

 

[mkk41]

Well , the dimensions in Barnes COTW say otherwise. .522 for the Schofield , .512 for the Colt , .506 for the Colt Govt.

 

[ricks1]

d walt is right about size
the one you have in pic on left was a colt 45 it is a baloon type case for black powder small primer that goes about 1/4 in in the powder to make sure it fired. most dont reload good . case was a bit shorter and very thin. I had read that head is thinner so dust from carrying didnt keep old colts from firing .
But schos and reg 45 colt is same head size I use th schols in my 460 for acp loads
MY mic is not a barnes so it says they are same head size , I need to find one of the barnes mics

 

[DWalt]

I pulled a lot of cartridges in my collection and measured the rim diameters. In .45 Colt, I have about 30 rounds, all quite old, no modern ones, having a number of different commercial headstamps, none military. Rim diameters measured as small as .503", and as large as .512". The average is close to .510". In .45 Schofield (.45 S&W), I have only two rounds, both FA headstamped. One rim diameter was .518", one was .520". So say .519". Therefore, the .45 S&W/Schofield rim is in fact about 0.01" larger in diameter than the .45 Colt's by actual measurement, not really enough to make any significant difference. I also have two rounds of FA M1909 .45. The rim diameter of both of those rounds was .538". And their case length is the same as the .45 Colt's.

The very earliest .45 Colt and .45 S&W/Schofield cartridges were inside primed, rather than Boxer primed - that didn't start until the mid-1880s. Unfortunately, I do not have any of the earlier .45 cases to measure, either Colt or S&W/Schofield, so I have no idea if there were any rim diameter differences in the earlier cartridges using an entirely different type of case construction (actually several different types).

It was the M1909 cartridge which would not fit properly in the SAA. As the cylinder diameter of the SAA was somewhat less than that of the Colt M1909 revolver, the M1909 rims would overlap when loaded into the SAA cylinder. You could load three rounds of M1909 in the SAA with empty chambers between. But that sort of limits your firepower.

 

[mkk41]

And what is the date headstamped on those FA rounds?

Found this.

The .45 Schofield cartridge was shorter than the .45 Long Colt. It could be used in both the Schofield and the Colt 45 Peacemaker, but the .45 Long Colt was too long to use in the Schofield. As a result, by the 1880s the army finally standardized on a .45 cartridge designed to fire in both revolvers, the M1887 Military Ball Cartridge. The M1887 was made at Frankford Arsenal, and was issued only to the military. It had a shortened case and reduced rim; as it was short enough to fit the Schofield, and its rim was not needed for the rod-ejector Single Action Army, the M1887 would fire and eject from both revolvers

I'm thinking the 44/40 and 38/40 WCF , also chambered in the Colt SAA , had a rim diameter of .520.

Guess I have to find an early .45 Schofield round now.

 

[DWalt]

I'll add a little information about the so-called ".45 Short" cartridge. Some quantity of them (perhaps 10,000) were made up in 1906 by Frankford Arsenal for the Army pistol trials. There were both rimmed and rimless versions, with the following specifications for the rimmed:

F A 4 06 & with punch crimps = CN jacketed bullet, .528" dia. rim, .472" dia. head, .918" case length, .451" bullet at mouth, 1.299" OAL & 350.0 grains total weight. There are several slight variations known. Also, UMC may have made some of these cartridges on special order for S&W.

The 1907 Army trials included not only autopistols, but also both Colt (New Service) and Smith & Wesson (triple-lock) revolvers. No one seems to know exactly in what chambering the Colt revolvers were supplied for the trials, but it seems likely that the S&W submissions were chambered specifically for the .45 Experimental (which S&W may have called the .45 Special). Note that the .45 Experimental rim diameter was somewhat larger than either the .45 Colt or the .45 Schofield/S&W cartridges. Out of these Army trials, the Colt was found superior to the S&W, and was recommended for adoption as the Model of 1909, but chambered for the aforementioned Model of 1909 cartridge with a still larger rim diameter. The .45 Experimental/.45 Special/.45 Short never became a military or commercial cartridge, and of course the Colt Model of 1909 was rather short-lived in service after the Colt Model of 1911 was adopted by the Army. The Model of 1909 Ammunition was made for awhile, as the two examples I have from Frankford Arsenal are headstamped as FA 4 13. I also have an empty box for the M1909 ammunition dated March 14 1912.