.45 Super Loads for 22-4?

[M2MikeGolf]

I recently purchased a 22-4 on GB to pair with my Colt Commander. I've been looking for one for awhile, and think I got a fair deal. It's still in the mail and so I haven't physically seen it yet. I used to have an original M1917, but was forced to sell it (that's another story).

I am curious if it is like the old M1917s and can headspace on recesses in the cylinder and use .45 Auto Rim. Anyone know? I'm becoming quite the fan of Buffalo Bore ammunition and I see they make a .45 AR. I'd like to use it.

But more importantly, I recently read an article that stated the newer Model 1917/22 can fire .45 Super. Is that right or safe or even advisable? I'm a bit dubious, and can be satisfied with normal .45 ACP or even +P, but would like to be able to use it if it's safe. It's simply not worth possible damage to the revolver, and can be happy at some good old fashioned 230 grain ball or JHP. I also know I'm about to get a lot of opinions both for and against, but would like to hear an objective opinion about it (if there is actually one out there ).

 

[Rick_A]

Rounds do head space off the case mouths. AR loads are good.

Buffalo Bore sells +P+ (45 Super) level AR loads with post war 45acp guns such as these in mind.

 

[colt_saa]

I love 45 Super. I have been shooting it for close to 2 decades.

I would not hesitate to shoot 45 Super in a modern model 22.

While a large percentage of modern revolvers that fire moon clipped auto loader cartridges can be fired without the clips, this is not how they were designed to be used. They are intended to head space on the moon clips

The problem with trusting head spacing on the case mouth is that heavy crimps used with the higher power loads may not reliably ignite.

 

[thomasinaz]

The 22-4 can probably handle the pressure of BB ammunition, but probably won't be a lot of fun to shoot in that light barreled revolver. When I shoot my AR hand loads of a 250 LSWC over 13 gr of 2400 it's a little much in the recoil department. Especially with the small factory wooden grips on the 22-4.

 

[NE450No2]

The olderS&W 1917's and the Mod 25-2's would shoot 45 ACP without the moon clips.

The newer guns were made with out the same care in the cylinder, and many will not shoot ACP ammo with out the clips. This was a decision made by the "bean counters" at S&W. I am not sure what year this decision was made.

I have shot a 325 Night Guard that will shoot some ACP ammo with out clips, but not all...

I would not want to have any ammo in 45 ACP cases that I could not shoot in a standard 1911. I always used 45 Auto Rim cases to load up higher powered ammo for my 25-2.

The older Speer reloading books actually show higher velocity loads for the 45 Auto Rim than they do for the 44 Special...

 

[lebomm]

Well, my Thunder Ranch M22-4 (ordered up new at my LGS 4-5 yrs ago) has the same chamber shoulders as all my M1917s had and fires ACP without clips quite nicely, thank you.

Larry

 

[rockquarry]

I'm not familiar with the .45 Super, but the Sierra handloading manual #5 (the newest I have) lists heavier Auto Rim loads than most sources. Separately listed, the book also includes a number of loads for .45 ACP revolvers only; these are considerably heavier than recommended loads for semi-automatic pistols. The heavy ACP loads should work fine in Auto Rim brass. As expected, all loads shown in the data use Sierra bullets.

 

[M2MikeGolf]

Some excellent answers here, I appreciate the effort that all have made. Think I have a pretty good idea of what I will use for factory loads before I start down the handloading trail. Now I'm just waiting for my 22-4 to arrive. I had orignally wanted to find one of those beautiful case hardened ones but I notice not too many people let those go, and when they do, they go for a premium.

Thanks, all!

 

[kaaskop49]

attn all previous posters

VERRY interesting thread. I remember warnings in the 80s against the use of heavy .45LC loads in the Model 25-5 because of the small amount (forget the measurement) of metal between the chamber wall and the bottom of the cylinder notch. The 22-4 must have a similar dimension. That the .44 Mag had a thicker dimension in this area obviously and had greater strength.

Help me out with some clarification, people!

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[S&WIowegan]

I have extensive experience shooting 22-4 revolvers; as in a revolver PD course at Thunder Ranch. I'm confident the revolver can stand shooting heavy loads. The bigger question for you is can your hand and wrist stand it? Better stocks will help with that. In addition, the fixed sights are not likely to shoot POA with heavy loads....they are regulated for standard 45ACP ammo.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[colt_saa]

VERRY interesting thread. I remember warnings in the 80s against the use of heavy .45LC loads in the Model 25-5 because of the small amount (forget the measurement) of metal between the chamber wall and the bottom of the cylinder notch. The 22-4 must have a similar dimension. That the .44 Mag had a thicker dimension in this area obviously and had greater strength.

Help me out with some clarification, people!

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Smith and Wesson has learned a thing or two about machining and metallurgy in 3+ decades. Not to mention 45 Super brass is considerably stronger than 45 ACP.

I would never fire 45 Super in a model 25 or 22 that was produced prior to S&Ws change to CNC machining.

Additionally, we are not reaching the 36,000 PSI of the 44 Magnum. 45 ACP runs at a max of 21,000 PSI, 45 ACP +P tops put at 23,000 PSI and 45 Super only reaches 28,000 PSI. That is 28% more pressure in the 44 Magnum than the 45 Super

This nice thing is that translates into some decent power gains.

Using the 45 caliber 230 grain JHP as a reference velocities are as followes

45ACP: 880FPS
45ACP+P: 980FPS
45SMC/45Super: 1160FPS

That is a significant increase in velocity. It is an even more amazing increase in energy.

45ACP: 395 ft-lbs
45ACP+P: 490 ft-lbs
45SMC/45Super: 650 ft-lbs

More than 50% extra energy over the standard 45 ACP

 

[azlou66]

Clark custom does conversions on 625's to 460 Rowland which operates at 40,000 MAP and they use the Smith cylinders for the conversions.

 

[kaaskop49]

attn colt saa

Thanks for your customary, learned post! It is appreciated.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[M E Morrison]

The olderS&W 1917's and the Mod 25-2's would shoot 45 ACP without the moon clips.

The newer guns were made with out the same care in the cylinder, and many will not shoot ACP ammo with out the clips. This was a decision made by the "bean counters" at S&W. I am not sure what year this decision was made.

I have shot a 325 Night Guard that will shoot some ACP ammo with out clips, but not all...

I would not want to have any ammo in 45 ACP cases that I could not shoot in a standard 1911. I always used 45 Auto Rim cases to load up higher powered ammo for my 25-2.

The older Speer reloading books actually show higher velocity loads for the 45 Auto Rim than they do for the 44 Special...

FWIW, my M625 is about 50/50 fire/not fire without clips. I suspect this is a case length problem, as many brand new cases have measured at or below minimum case length.

 

[M E Morrison]

Smith and Wesson has learned a thing or two about machining and metallurgy in 3+ decades. Not to mention 45 Super brass is considerably stronger than 45 ACP.

I would never fire 45 Super in a model 25 or 22 that was produced prior to S&Ws change to CNC machining.

Additionally, we are not reaching the 36,000 PSI of the 44 Magnum. 45 ACP runs at a max of 21,000 PSI, 45 ACP +P tops put at 23,000 PSI and 45 Super only reaches 28,000 PSI. That is 28% more pressure in the 44 Magnum than the 45 Super

This nice thing is that translates into some decent power gains.

Using the 45 caliber 230 grain JHP as a reference velocities are as followes

45ACP: 880FPS
45ACP+P: 980FPS
45SMC/45Super: 1160FPS

That is a significant increase in velocity. It is an even more amazing increase in energy.

45ACP: 395 ft-lbs
45ACP+P: 490 ft-lbs
45SMC/45Super: 650 ft-lbs

More than 50% extra energy over the standard 45 ACP

That is all well & fine, but I don't know when that happened.

 

[Hotlead]

FWIW, my M625 is about 50/50 fire/not fire without clips. I suspect this is a case length problem, as many brand new cases have measured at or below minimum case length.

My 625-8 has fired every round I've put in it, moonclip or no, premium, cheap, reloads......doesn't matter, fires every time.

 

[BruceM]

While a large percentage of modern revolvers that fire moon clipped auto loader cartridges can be fired without the clips, this is not how they were designed to be used. They are intended to head space on the moon clips

That may be so with some revolvers but Smith's have the shoulder in the charge holes for a reason and that reason isn't that that they had extra $'s to waste on unnecessary machining operations. The half moon and then full moon clips were provided as a method for quick, easy extraction only. The shoulder in the charge holes allows for firing the revolver should the clips be lost or damaged in a combat or self defense situation. JM and others have caused full moon clips to morph into de facto speed loaders. If your gun doesn't reliably fire in spec. ammo without moon clips, it's time to speak to Smith & Wesson. If your ammo, whether factory or handloads, is out of spec. you're obviously on your own. There also is Smith & Wesson's well documented stance on the use of reloads in their guns. I, for one, can't see how any firearms manufacturer can/should be held accountable if their product won't fire out of spec. ammo but that's just me-I guess.

Headspacing off the moon clips is just a co-incidental byproduct of the design. The same goes for headspacing off the extractor in an autoloader in general or in a 10mm autoloader while trying to use .40 S&W ammo in particular. The latter, by the way, is a REALLY bad idea regardless of who claims it's OK.

It would seem .45 Super in an N-Frame Smith would be ok. The pressure increase isn't that large and Dean Grennell developed the .45 Super with limiting the pressure increase in mind so that a few rounds of it could be fired in unmodified 1911's accidentally without causing damage to the gun and, more importantly, the shooter. If you ask me about .460 Rowland in a 6 shot N-Frame however, the answer has been and always will be completely different.



Bruce

 

[colt_saa]

That is all well & fine, but I don't know when that happened.

The revolvers are visually different.

The older revolver used a stud for the cylinder stop

The newer revolvers have the cylinder stop machined into the frame (CNC)

Sorry I had to use a 57 for the example, I do not have a newer 25 photographed from that side

 

[Model 15-4ever]

I have a 22-4 Classic. The chambers are shouldered - not bored straight through - and will fire .45 ACP without clips. However, like some others I use .45 AR brass for loads greater than 21,000 psi.

There is a useful article in the August, 2008 issue of Handloader by Brian Pearce, discussing the .45 AR, and pressure levels in S&W revolvers. He states that they are capable of handling the 23,000 psi level loads, but does not discuss .45 Super pressure levels. I'm not familiar with any reloading authorities recommend loading the S&W .45 revolvers beyond 23,000 psi.

The "Ruger only" loads for the .45 Colt are 28,000 psi. That is .45 Super level and obviously the S&Ws are not Ruger-only capable.

 

[Redhawk500]

I'm not familiar with the .45 Super, but the Sierra handloading manual #5 (the newest I have) lists heavier Auto Rim loads than most sources. Separately listed, the book also includes a number of loads for .45 ACP revolvers only; these are considerably heavier than recommended loads for semi-automatic pistols. The heavy ACP loads should work fine in Auto Rim brass. As expected, all loads shown in the data use Sierra bullets.

The Sierra 45 ACP revolver only loads are perfect for any modern S&W I've tried them in. The curious thing is a PC S&W 625-7 5" of mine shoots faster than my 25-2 6.5" due to its tighter tolerances. One 23000 psi MAP load of Blue Dot gives 1190 with the 5" and only 1110 with the 6.5", both using 200 gr GDHP and Auto Rim brass. I haven't tested these loads in the 22-4 or a 625 Springfield Armory commemorative, both 4" bbl. Hodgdon lists their loads at 20,100 CUP, 200 gr Speer at 1053 fps.The 45 Super is 28,000 psi according to one source I checked. I put this in the same category as Ruger only loads, which would function in a S&W but would soon stretch the frame according to John Linebaugh in the case of a .45 Colt. The Sierra 45 ACP revolver only loads work fine in any modern revolver and are enough gun. In my 6.5" 25-2, a 240 gr Sierra JHC does 1050 fps with the maximum Unique loads listed the 45 ACP revolver only area of the Sierra manual. A 230 grain FMJ-FP Hornady bullet. using 7.2 grains of Unique, gives 927 fps from my 5 inch Kimber but had function issues due to the slide rate. The same load would be perfect in a modern 45 ACP revolver. As to the recoil with the small grips, I use Hogue grips that come with the .44 Mag S&W Mountain Gun and similar guns for heavy loads. I love the 22-4 but only with factory +P loads. Another underlug 5" 625 model of mine does very with heavy loads, again not beyond 45 ACP+P levels. Certainly the Hodgdon loads seem very reasonable for revolver use, and I suspect they are 45ACP+P loads rather than the 28,000 psi load levels. I would use them in a Ruger conversion cylinder, not a S&W. If I load loads that require a crimp to function and use 45 ACP brass, I load them in full moon clips so I know they are revolver only 45 ACP loads.