4506-1

[Brandon0413]

Well, one wasn't enough. I picked up my very first semi-auto this year, a model 3953. A couple weeks later I purchased a 4506-1 from the classifieds here.

This one's a decocker only type. I look at this forum quite a bit and have never seen a picture of a s&w with the message on the slide like this one.

I really love this gun. The first time I shot it I shot a nice little group from 7 yards and it put a big smile on my face. I've put a few hundred rounds through it without any problems, but the past couple of times I went to the range it jammed, but only when putting in a fresh magazine and hitting the slide release. When shooting I got no jams and when pulling the slide back all the way and releasing it never jammed. This thing cycles spent casings as well without a problem, but since I started getting the jams, it now jams occasionally when cycling spent casings.

I took a few pictures and have a couple of questions.

Things I have questions about to look for in the pictures:
(EDIT: See Post #2 for pictures of these. It's easier than going to the photobucket link)
-small nick in guide rod
-damage to inside of slide caused by barrel
-burr on barrel, not sure how to say where but I don't think anything rubs against this part of the barrel

This was my first time getting good pictures outside. Enjoy!

EDIT: There are more pictures here and higher quality versions of what I've posted here. To view the original full high quality image, click the icon in the bottom right of the image, then click the icon in the bottom right, yet again.
4506-1 Photos by brandon0413 | Photobucket

 

[Brandon0413]

Small nick in guide rod:

Damage to inside of slide caused by barrel:

Burr on barrel:

I'm pretty new to semi auto handguns and these are just a few things I noticed that I would like your opinion on. Thank you.

Also, regarding the jams. I have tried to find a new recoil spring and they appear to be out of stock everywhere. I emailed s&w and they just said "yeah, we should have one in stock." I see you can order some from Wolff. Should I get the Service Pak or just the recoil spring? Or should I just try to get a recoil spring from S&W?

 

[cpeblue]

Decocker only is the way these guns should be.
That's not damage it's tool marks from the factory
If the recoil spring don't work then the extractor spring would be my next guess .
Here's a picture of my 4003tsw tattoos.

 

[nocents]

to an untrained eye I see nothing that should start that beautiful 4506-1 not to cycle....although the feed ramp to me looks like it could benefit with a little attention.....I would try a new recoil spring...I recently picked a couple from Jack First....and it made a big difference in mine....and judicious amounts of lube (I like synthetic grease) on those rails and lube points and give it a go.......and I agree that the decocker only option is what I wish all mine were

 

[GaryS]

One thing you can try is marking your magazines and seeing if it's one (or more) magazines that this happens with.

That's a beautiful looking firearm. I think decocker only variations are pretty are in general. There were some frame mounted decocker versions made as well, but I don't know which is the more rare variant.

Fastbolt is a member and frequenty contributor here, he's an experienced factory trained S&W semi auto armorer and hopefully will have some ideas as to what's going on with your 4506. There are a couple of other members as well who have expertise who might have some ideas.

That's one of the best features of this forum, lots of good advice. Atypically, it's valuable free advice.

 

[Brandon0413]

Thanks guys. I only have one magazine for it. I'll try a new recoil spring before doing anything else.

 

[Navy74]

Over the last two months I have purchased three 4506 models. All in great condition. But, each one had a different length recoil spring in it. One was stiff, one not so stiff, and one quite weak. Gunsprings.com will solve your problem. Which is Wolff. Huge selection and you will have them in couple of days. I replaced all three for consistency. Oh, and these guns are old. I have pulled out some magazine springs which were coated with rust, and quite weak. Wolff can supply new mag springs as well, with a 5% or 10% increased stiffness over stock. Wouldn't hurt to change out that spring as well.

 

[GaryS]

After reading a few threads here I replaced the recoil springs on all of the 39xx guns. I've yet to replace any magazine springs, but every used magazine I've bought gets disassembled, cleaned, and the springs get inspected.

The consensus is that recoil and magazine springs are the root of the vast majority of 3rd generation problems experienced.

I'll go with that until someone comes along and proves otherwise.

Over the last two months I have purchased three 4506 models. All in great condition. But, each one had a different length recoil spring in it. One was stiff, one not so stiff, and one quite weak. Gunsprings.com will solve your problem. Which is Wolff. Huge selection and you will have them in couple of days. I replaced all three for consistency. Oh, and these guns are old. I have pulled out some magazine springs which were coated with rust, and quite weak. Wolff can supply new mag springs as well, with a 5% or 10% increased stiffness over stock. Wouldn't hurt to change out that spring as well.

 

[4506517]

We were always trained that releasing the slide with the SLIDE STOP lever is not the proper way to load the weapon. We issued and carried the 4566 for years.

We have transitioned to the full size M&P 45 (garbage) replacing the 4566. However, we are taught the same operation........do not release the slide with the SLIDE STOP. Grab the slide by the serrations pull back and release. This is called the sling shot. It allows the slide to develop a litle more momentum. Two reasons not to use the SLIDE STOP:

#1: What you are experiencing. The slide is not developing enough momentum to strip the new round off the magazine stack, push it up the feed ramp, and chamber it. We are also taught point it at the ground. Gravity helps develop momentum.

#2: In a firefight you will not have enough fine motor skill left to locate the slide stop and push it down. I always doubted that until we ran some pretty realistic drills that replicated the loss of motor skills. Now will you remember to point it down? Probably not. That makes it even more important to sling shot the slide to develop that extra momentum.

Give it a shot using the sling shot method. As far as I know, that is the method most LEOs are taught. It is taught because it is reliable and proven.

I think it is probably good advice to change out your springs. I have never changed the springs in any of my 22 3rd gennies. I'm not saying changing them out is a bad idea. Just saying that I never have.

Nice 4506-1 by the way. First one I have ever seen de-cock only from the factory. That is awesome!!!!!!!!!

 

[mscampbell2734]

We were always trained that releasing the slide with the SLIDE STOP lever is not the proper way to load the weapon. We issued and carried the 4566 for years.

We have transitioned to the full size M&P 45 (garbage) replacing the 4566. However, we are taught the same operation........do not release the slide with the SLIDE STOP. Grab the slide by the serrations pull back and release. This is called the sling shot. It allows the slide to develop a litle more momentum. Two reasons not to use the SLIDE STOP:

#1: What you are experiencing. The slide is not developing enough momentum to strip the new round off the magazine stack, push it up the feed ramp, and chamber it. We are also taught point it at the ground. Gravity helps develop momentum.

#2: In a firefight you will not have enough fine motor skill left to locate the slide stop and push it down. I always doubted that until we ran some pretty realistic drills that replicated the loss of motor skills. Now will you remember to point it down? Probably not. That makes it even more important to sling shot the slide to develop that extra momentum.

Give it a shot using the sling shot method. As far as I know, that is the method most LEOs are taught. It is taught because it is reliable and proven.

I think it is probably good advice to change out your springs. I have never changed the springs in any of my 22 3rd gennies. I'm not saying changing them out is a bad idea. Just saying that I never have.

Nice 4506-1 by the way. First one I have ever seen de-cock only from the factory. That is awesome!!!!!!!!!

And we in the LAPD, including SWAT and SIS always trained to use the slide stop.

We never bought into the fine motor skill dribble. Solders and police were using the slide stop long before Glock started putting out there way of doing things.

The fact your weapon was working before and is not working now means something has gone south. I always detail strip and replace all springs on used guns. A thorough cleaning and lube will fixed the majority of issues. Speaking of lube the stainless Smiths DO need a touch more then your plastics.

 

[ShelbyV8]

On 3rd Gen Smiths I always used the slide release. While you are reaching for the slide, pointing at the ground, doing a sling shot, and getting back on target I will have 2 to 3 rounds on target. I barely loose my target while reloading. I have shot that way for 30 years without a malfunction on metal guns. Plastic guns with hidden slide stops are a different story. Check your manufacturer, is it a slide release or a slide stop, they are different.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

 

[KSDeputy]

I have a 4506-1 with 50 rounds through it. It was issued as a carry pistol to replace the 645 we were carrying. I went to the range with it once before retiring. When we retire, we are given our service pistol. I like the double action/single action pistols. That is one reason why I like the Walther PPK & PPK/S as they function like the Smiths. Great photos here & on Photo Bucket. I would get the feed ramp polished for starters, I have that done on every semi-auto pistol I own. I never carried these pistols with the safety on. Some deputies did. A good way to get killed, I think. These pistols are safe like a revolver with the first round double action. I love the 4506, but I carry a CS45. Lighter, shorter barrel and operates the same way. My Sheriff's Office now carries .40 Glocks. I am glad I left before the change because I love Smith & Wesson pistols.

 

[BillBingham2]

Decocker only is the way these guns should be......

Why? I had a 5946 that I had to sell and think of replacing it with a 5906 (due to price) and would love to understand your perspective.

Thanks. B2

 

[timn8er]

Decocker only is the way these guns should be.
That's not damage it's tool marks from the factory
If the recoil spring don't work then the extractor spring would be my next guess .
Here's a picture of my 4003tsw tattoos.

Why? Individual preference is not allowed? I prefer TDA with a safety/decocker. I have one 3rd Gen with a decocker only, it doesn't bother me, I just prefer the other configuration.

 

[cpeblue]

Why? Individual preference is not allowed? I prefer TDA with a safety/decocker. I have one 3rd Gen with a decocker only, it doesn't bother me, I just prefer the other configuration.

Taste great ,,Less filling,,Taste great,,Less filling. I guess I,m just slow, I like to keep things simple. Pull trigger goes bang , I don't want to worry about the position of the safety just my finger.

 

[18DAI]

Congrats on scoring that nice 4506-1 Brandon0413 ! It is a beauty!

I like the decock only models for holstered duty use guns. I also like my standard decock/safety models for IWB carry. There is room for both versions in my safe.

My thumb still sweeps up on a draw with my decock only 4566. Force of habit.

I sure would like to come across a decock only 4506-1. Very nice pistol indeed! Enjoy yours! Regards 18DAI

 

[timn8er]

Taste great ,,Less filling,,Taste great,,Less filling. I guess I,m just slow, I like to keep things simple. Pull trigger goes bang , I don't want to worry about the position of the safety just my finger.

And that's your preference, not mine. I believe we are entitled to our own preferences?

 

[cpeblue]

And that's your preference, not mine. I believe we are entitled to our own preferences?

timn8er,maybe I worded it wrong ie; Ginger---no Mary Ann---no Ginger---no Mary Ann . I like brunettes and redheads but given a choice Mary Ann all the way.

 

[Brandon0413]

New Spring

Thanks everyone.

I ended up ordering a service pak from wolff and installed the new recoil spring and the magazine spring. The old magazine spring was out of shape pretty bad.

I went to the range yesterday and put over a hundred rounds through it without any problems. I wasn't shooting very well, but that's probably my fault. It seemed to be shooting very low compared to previous range sessions. But, I forgot all about paying attention to my grip which seemed to help tremendously in the past.

I noticed a few spent casings being ejected in weird directions, but didn't pay a lot of attention to it. One hit me on the forehead. Another flew straight forward. I thought that was odd.

I read in another thread on this forum that if you can spin the head of the guide rod easily that it needs replaced. That is the case with this guns guide rod. It spins very easily. EDIT: Actually, I just checked and it isn't as bad as I thought. I think it's fine. The one in my 3953 doesn't spin so easily, but will spin with enough force. What trouble can this cause?

 

[Fastbolt]

Thanks everyone.

I ended up ordering a service pak from wolff and installed the new recoil spring and the magazine spring. The old magazine spring was out of shape pretty bad.

I went to the range yesterday and put over a hundred rounds through it without any problems. I wasn't shooting very well, but that's probably my fault. It seemed to be shooting very low compared to previous range sessions. But, I forgot all about paying attention to my grip which seemed to help tremendously in the past.

I noticed a few spent casings being ejected in weird directions, but didn't pay a lot of attention to it. One hit me on the forehead. Another flew straight forward. I thought that was odd.

Yep, a significant majority of "problems" can be resolved with new/fresh recoil & mag springs ... and correcting any shooter grip technique deficiencies.

Of course, if you're getting erratic ejection patterns, with the same ammo (and it's made by one or another of the major American companies), and you're not allowing your grip to falter or vary due to fatigue ... I'd look at the ejector. Is the tip broken off?

Failures-to-extract? Then I'd have a smith (familiar with 3rd gen's) or the factory examine the extractor (chipped, broken or otherwise damaged) and/or the extractor spring tension.

I read in another thread on this forum that if you can spin the head of the guide rod easily that it needs replaced. That is the case with this guns guide rod. It spins very easily. EDIT: Actually, I just checked and it isn't as bad as I thought. I think it's fine. The one in my 3953 doesn't spin so easily, but will spin with enough force. What trouble can this cause?

In the older staked rod assemblies, once the staking becomes loose enough that you can gently & easily twist the head, there's no way to know when the staking will next become loose enough for the rod to exit the front of the slide, and leave the collar, plunger & spring (in some combination) to be found wherever they end up.


Just like you don't SHOVE & PUSH a revolver (or pistol) hammer in Single Action to see if it will hold and not Push Off, you don't use too much (excessive) force to check the staking of the guide rod assemblies. At some point, you may cause the very problem you're checking for & hoping not to find.


Something similar armorers check for is whether the sideplate pin becomes loose within the sideplate (staked to plate) and can be turned. Once the pin becomes loose within the plate, you're sort of on borrowed time, and replacing the sideplate with a new one restores the gun to factory spec. Trying to break the pin loose when checking for movement isn't the goal, though.

 

[Brandon0413]

I was just looking at the ejector, trying to figure out exactly how it works. Does it just come up and the spent casing hits it, forcing it out?

The very end of the ejector is not chipped. It is, however, chipped a little on the side opposite the ejection port on the little dome shaped part and there are a couple of areas worn through the finish, elsewhere.

The ammo I was using was the cheapest 45 ammo I've seen, yet. It was tulammo steel cased. I went through a box and a half or so of winchester brass cased before that and didn't notice any erratic ejecting. But, I wasn't really paying attention until one hit me on the head. I'll shoot some different ammo, work on my grip and try to pay attention better next time.

The head of the guide rod does spin quite freely compared to my 3953 and there seems to be a small gap between the head and the guide rod like it is starting to separate. I can move it back and forth. I just can't turn the head of it with one finger. I think I read earlier today that it needs replaced if you can turn it with one finger. If I grab it with 2 fingers it spins easily without any resistance. But if I do that with the 3953 guide rod I get some resistance. Sounds like I played with it too much, but, I also noticed that on the 3953 guide rod that the button (not sure that's the correct term, but it sounds good to me) that the slide stop hits gets resistance or feels like it's hitting something when trying to press it. If I spin the guide rod head a bit, it frees it up and you can press that button easier, without so much resistance. Sounds like I should try to get a new guide rod for this one. I don't see any in stock anywhere, though.

 

[Fastbolt]

I was just looking at the ejector, trying to figure out exactly how it works. Does it just come up and the spent casing hits it, forcing it out?

The very end of the ejector is not chipped. It is, however, chipped a little on the side opposite the ejection port on the little dome shaped part and there are a couple of areas worn through the finish, elsewhere.

The ejector is lifted up by the magazine when inserted in the gun, and the empty cases impact against it. The older ones were shorter and had a sharp corner cut underneath the rear of the tip (bottom ejector in attached pic). The revised ejectors (top one in pic) had longer tips, for faster ejection (especially with hotter loads), and the sharp corner on the bottom of the tip was replaced with a curve (to reduce stress riser potential & breakage).

There were some other little changes here & there over the years (longer .40 ejectors, black & plain finish, etc).

The ammo I was using was the cheapest 45 ammo I've seen, yet. It was tulammo steel cased. ... I'll shoot some different ammo, work on my grip and try to pay attention better next time.

I'd try it again with any ammo made by one of the major American ammo makers, myself.

The head of the guide rod does spin quite freely compared to my 3953 and there seems to be a small gap between the head and the guide rod like it is starting to separate. I can move it back and forth. ... If I grab it with 2 fingers it spins easily without any resistance. But if I do that with the 3953 guide rod I get some resistance. Sounds like I played with it too much, but, I also noticed that on the 3953 guide rod that the button (not sure that's the correct term, but it sounds good to me) that the slide stop hits gets resistance or feels like it's hitting something when trying to press it. If I spin the guide rod head a bit, it frees it up and you can press that button easier, without so much resistance. Sounds like I should try to get a new guide rod for this one. I don't see any in stock anywhere, though.

I'd replace both rod assemblies, if they were my guns, or duty weapons. Yes, they can periodically be hard to find. They're may not all be perfect, either. Notice the overlapped staking on the one rod in this bunch? (The one on the left is a newer 1-piece unit, with removeable plunger & spring.)

 

[vigil617]

Fastbolt, since we're talking about extractors here, what's the purpose of the "dome" on the tip of the extractor? Does it just act as an additional stiffener (the way cross breaks in sheet metal will stiffen a piece) for the tip prior to heat treatment, or does it catch on any part of the empty cartridge during ejection?

 

[Fastbolt]

Fastbolt, since we're talking about extractors here, what's the purpose of the "dome" on the tip of the extractor? Does it just act as an additional stiffener (the way cross breaks in sheet metal will stiffen a piece) for the tip prior to heat treatment, or does it catch on any part of the empty cartridge during ejection?

Helps "widen" the bottom edge profile of the ejector so it catches the top of the mag (left lip).

 

[Brandon0413]

Well, I put in the new recoil spring and magazine spring and the feeding issues have disappeared.

I asked a friend to watch while I was shooting to see if my empty casings were ejecting properly and he said about half of them look good and the other half fly straight back over my head. Is this an issue or can it cause issues? I was shooting some winchester ammo.

The very first time I shot this gun it was like a lazer. Every bullet went right where I was aiming. I haven't been able to do this since. It seems to be all over the place, now. I'm leaning towards it being me since I'm pretty new to target shooting and proper grip etc. I've tried focusing on my grip like I was when I first shot this gun but haven't been able to do as good with it since. I was thinking about sending it in to S&W or one of their warranty sites but not sure exactly how to go about it. This gun also needs a new guide rod as it is starting to come apart. What do you guys think?

 

[Navy74]

It's you. And yes, the new springs were a good idea as these guns are usually 20 years old. Or older. I have trouble accuracy wise with my 4506, yet my 4566 with the shorter barrel, I am dead on. Go figure. To me the 4566 has perfect balance. The 4506, while really "awesome" looking, seems like a hunk of metal with Novocain injections. No feel.

 

[photocosmo]

I'd certainly be concerned if that guide rod is "coming apart" and if you can order one from S&W... get TWO - 'cuz why not? Otherwise I'd zero out your sights and try using a bench rest or something because once you are convinced that the pistol is reliably accurate (which I consistently find true of MY 4506-no dash) you'll immediately become more relaxed and (consequently) a better shooter of it.
Generally speaking these are very effective and forgiving "working" guns meant to deliver the goods time and time again. There's not a lot to go wrong here. And what better excuse could one have for shooting it a whole bunch anyway?

 

[Fastbolt]

This gun also needs a new guide rod as it is starting to come apart.

If the staked head/collar of the guide rod is loose (can be turned by fingers gently twisting it, while holding the rod body in the other hand), it's time to order a replacement rod assembly.

There are two types you'll probably find. The older style has the head/collar staked onto the body (6 staking dimples on the body, just below the collar). The newer type is a 1-piece rod body, and the plunger (and its spring) are pressed into the head of the body (and are removable/replaceable, unlike with the older style unit). These are a mix of units from different caliber 3rd gen's, just to show the difference in how they've been produced.



For a while I was receiving both styles when I ordered replacement rod assemblies for the larger .45's, so either type may be available depending where/when you order.

 

[Brandon0413]

I ended up sending this 4506-1 to S&W and they replaced the guide rod with an old style one that's in good shape. They also replaced the extractor spring. I've yet to take it to the range to see if it makes any difference, but I can tell they fired a round or two through it at least.

I also ordered a guide rod for my 3953 and they sent me an incomplete guide rod twice without the plunger or the spring for the plunger. Then, they sent me an old style one in good shape.

If anyone needs a guide rod for a 3913/3953 I have two without the plunger or spring for the plunger. I'm not sure where to find the plunger or spring.

Do you want these, fastbolt?

 

[Fastbolt]

I ended up sending this 4506-1 to S&W and they replaced the guide rod with an old style one that's in good shape. They also replaced the extractor spring. I've yet to take it to the range to see if it makes any difference, but I can tell they fired a round or two through it at least.

I also ordered a guide rod for my 3953 and they sent me an incomplete guide rod twice without the plunger or the spring for the plunger. Then, they sent me an old style one in good shape.

If anyone needs a guide rod for a 3913/3953 I have two without the plunger or spring for the plunger. I'm not sure where to find the plunger or spring.

Do you want these, fastbolt?

Appreciate the offer, but I have at least a couple of the older style. Why not save them for someone who might really need them some time? Someone often asks for such things on the forum every now and again.

I'd like to say it's unusual to end up getting the newer style rod assemblies sent out without the plungers & springs installed in them ... but I've had that happen to me, as well.

It seems to be easier to return the incomplete rod 'assemblies' to have the plungers & springs installed -(or just have someone in Parts grab another complete rod assembly to ship in replacement, tossing the plain 'incomplete' rods back into some small bin with others) - than to have the plungers & springs shipped out as separate parts. At this time, at least. Dunno why.

I haven't heard of the newer style steel plungers and springs wearing out, so it's probably not like they're keeping an over-abundance of them put away as repair parts.

Rods can become damaged, though, so I can see keeping some of them on hand as separate parts.

I've also heard of an isolated agency who may have received some of the older rod units that developed some mushroomed peening on the front end (which reportedly eventually interfered with the end of the rod moving within the slide's spring box hole during functioning). Best guess I heard was a possible problem with heat treating in that small number of units.

The plastic plungers can get frayed and chewed up (from a lot of field stripping), but seem to keep providing for normal functioning even after starting to look frazzled. I've kept one in one of my CS guns (forget which at the moment) just to see how long it'll keep working well after the head's tip started taking on the appearance of a dog's chew toy. I finally lost interest waiting for it to cause a problem.

Then again, I once got shipped one of the separate steel plungers (in a 'replenishment' parts order of odds & ends) which apparently hadn't received all the necessary machining. The top of the plunger looked sort of like an arrowhead, or a sharply cut mushroom. I tossed it in my "oddities" drawer and didn't even try it in a gun.

BTW, not surprised they replaced the extractor spring. Probably gauged the extractor for fit and the spring for tension as part of a quick inspection (since they've got the tools at the bench), and saw your spring was outside (below) the recommended spec range. Easy thing to check and do, and it can really help an older gun continue to provide good service.

I'd not worry about machining marks, as the older guns certainly came with a range of such marks. Newer production methods have "cleaned up" such things, but they can still happen.

Ditto with burrs. Some burrs I leave alone ('cosmetic', but hidden from view in assembled gun), and some I clean up (if they might cause an actual problem). The trick is to learn the difference ... and learn how to dress burrs so the "fix" doesn't create an unintended problem of its own, where none actually existed beforehand (other than cosmetic).