455 conversion to 45 auto question

[Hondo44]

I have an S&W 2nd Mdl HE which was originally chambered for the .455 ELEY, and, which had been modified to chamber .45 Colt AND .45 ACP.

Well that's clever! So apparently its chambers were reamed for the 45 Colt but not long enough for the case to seat on the rim. That way the cases stuck out far enough for the headspace to be tight enough for reliable ignition when loaded separately and also enough to use your modified cases with moon clips.

And of course that was enough headspace for 45 ACP with moon clips as well. So the only option you don't have is loading ACP w/o clips and who would want to do that anyway because of the ejection issue.

That's the most brilliant solution I've ever heard of!

 

[Hondo44]

Ready for a long winded response????

Dean,

Bravo, I do believe we have the final word on this now, thanks to you!

Well done,

 

[Oyeboteb]

Well that's clever! So apparently its chambers were reamed for the 45 Colt but not long enough for the case to seat on the rim. That way the cases stuck out far enough for the headspace to be tight enough for reliable ignition when loaded separately and also enough to use your modified cases with moon clips.

Sorry, I was not clear on this - the condition with both these Revolvers ( the .455 S & W and the .455 Colt, but not the Colt .New Service .455 Eley I was mentioning previously, a different one I have had for ever,) is that who-ever had bored and also shaved the rear of the Cylinders to convert them from the .455 to .45 ACP/.45 Colt, did so in a way where .45 Colt fit in all the way to where the Rim was flat against the Cylinder, but when doing so, it then had quite a generous Head Space, since the Head Space between Cylinder and Recoil Shield was calculated for .45 ACP in Moon Clips.

They would fire the .45 Colt just fine, with the generous Head Space, but one day I had a Cartridge Case seperate about in it's middle, and, this seemed to me to be less than ideal.

Where, my use of .45 Colt in Moon Clips solved all the various issues, of Bullet Jump, Head Space, and, allowing me to use chubbier than usual Bullets.

And of course that was enough headspace for 45 ACP with moon clips as well. So the only option you don't have is loading ACP w/o clips and who would want to do that anyway because of the ejection issue.

Yes, in those two Revolvers, .45 ACP with no Moon Clips would not work well or would not work at all...as the Cartridge would dive down into the Cylinder Chamber doo deeply for the Firing Pin to reach! Lol...

That's the most brilliant solution I've ever heard of!

Thank you!

I know I had some images of the .45 Colt in full Moon Clips, but I have not been able to find where I had put them.


The "New Service 455 Eley" I recently got, who's Cylinder has been shaved, but, whose Cylinder Chambers appear to be original in depth and undisturbed...now, it looks like it will manage .45 ACP without Moon Clips, and, maybe, that is what it was modified/shaved to do.

It's Cylinder will not close with .45 ACP in Moon Clips, and, of course, will not abide .45 Colt, either since it does not fit in near far enough...though it still abides .455 Eley perfectly, if possibly with just a teeeeeeny bit more Headspace than originally intended, but not sos much as one could notice by looking, for having had it's Cylinder shaved a little.


So, as our excellent Thread is showing, there are quite a few ways in which these originally .455 S&W and Colt Revolvers had been 'converted', and, it can take a while to get them figured out.


I will post an image showing this sometime soon.

 

[Jack Flash]

Hi Jack Flash,

... Mine says "NEW SERVICE 455 ELEY" for the Barrel Stamping text.
...
I think I paid like $36.00 for a Box of factory .455 Cartridges at the Gun Show, some non-ammo seller who had a few odd Boxes of this and that, and, I figured I'd save the Brass ( if I ever shoot it enough to do so, ) and, then, re-Load them.
...
Next time I go to the Range, I will try mine with some every day K-Mart .45 ACP Cartridges, and, see how they fire.
...
I have a few old Boxes of factory loaded .45 Auto-Rim, and, several old Boxes of factory primed Cases, and, I should dig those out and see how - or if - they fit, too.

Have you tried those with yours?

My face is red. Mine says ".455 Eley" on the barrel just like yours. I have some Dominion (Canadian) brass headstamped ".455 Colt" which somehow caused me to get confused. (On occasion, I do get confused ).

$36 for a box of .455 cartridges is not bad. Are they Fiocchi? If so, I'll bet they are Mark II. If instead it is British service .455, they are almost certainly Berdan primed and very corrosive.

I would caution against trying to shoot unclipped .45 ACP in your revolver. I did this and I found out it was pretty reckless of me. The first one would go off ok, but the recoil would cause the other five to sink deeper into their chambers, so the next one would not fire. Worst case, your firing pin may just barely touch the primer of the second one and cause a hang fire. It goes without saying that this could be disasterous if you are engaged in some kind of rapid fire exercise. In other words, don't do it!

If .45 Colt will not function in my revolver because the rim is too thick, then naturally the even thicker rimmed .45 Auto Rim wouldn't either.

 

[Oyeboteb]

My face is red. Mine says ".455 Eley" on the barrel just like yours. I have some Dominion (Canadian) brass headstamped ".455 Colt" which somehow caused me to get confused. (On occasion, I do get confused ).

Ahhh, welcome to the Club!

Lol...

The only people I have ever known who did not make mistakes or get a little confused now and then, were people in a Coma, and, for all I know, they still made mistakes or got confused, but in that situation, no one else would have been able to tell, and, they did not seem to have anything to say about it either, so...

$36 for a box of .455 cartridges is not bad. Are they Fiocchi? If so, I'll bet they are Mark II. If instead it is British service .455, they are almost certainly Berdan primed and very corrosive.

I just had a look, and the Box of Cartridges are 'Hornady', Mk-II, 265 Grain Lead.

Now that I am looking at the Box, I am not sure that I was correct about what I paid, not that it matters, but, I think it was more like 20-something, as it is a 25 Round Box.

I bought some other Ammo that day, which was like $36.00 and I was getting those two mixed up.

Buck-a-round is about the upper limits of where I can retain any enthusiasm about buying Pistol Ammo I think.

I would caution against trying to shoot unclipped .45 ACP in your revolver. I did this and I found out it was pretty reckless of me. The first one would go off ok, but the recoil would cause the other five to sink deeper into their chambers, so the next one would not fire. Worst case, your firing pin may just barely touch the primer of the second one and cause a hang fire. It goes without saying that this could be disasterous if you are engaged in some kind of rapid fire exercise. In other words, don't do it!

Oh! Yipes! - thanks for the mention/caution on that. That does not sound like fun at all.

I will proceed with this in mind then, and, likely just load two rounds, and, after firing the first, I will inspect the positioning of the second before continuing.

If .45 Colt will not function in my revolver because the rim is too thick, then naturally the even thicker rimmed .45 Auto Rim wouldn't either.

Ahhhh...makes sense...


I need to find my old Boxes of Auto-Rim so I can try those in mine. But, I am now thinking they shall be too fat in the Head for this Revolver, just as they are with yours, since .45 ACP in Moon Clips clearly prevent the Cylinder closing on this particular one of mine.

Where, so far, it seems like the 'conversion' or modification in my instance, was to permit the use of un-Moon-clipped .45 ACP, since, nothing else so far appears to fit! ( Other than .455 Mk-something-or-other Cartridges proper, or, .450 Adams I suppose, or .476 Enfield, or their likes, since they were all the same diameter and varies by length by only a little, Lol...).

Cylinder Chambers are a little deeper than the .455 Mk-II Cartridge Case length is long, and, the 'step' is not a 90 degee one, but, rather, is a little softened or rounded in it's way.


So, I will see if .45 ACP by itself drifts or sinks into the Chambers from recoil, or, not...I am not even sure just what the .45 ACP is locating on, since it also is a little shy in Case length to meet the actual position of the 'step'...and that then will help decide what the 'conversion' had accomplished ( if it had in fact accomplished anything beyond making the rear of the Cylinder appear a little 'shaved' ).

 

[Jack Flash]

... I will proceed with this in mind then, and, likely just load two rounds, and, after firing the first, I will inspect the positioning of the second before continuing.
...

Good Luck. I would still advise against it.

At least ponder the following quotation first. My life has been a testament to its veracity.

"Good judgement is the result of experience.
Experience usually results from bad judgement."​

 

[Roadranger]

My two cents worth. A Deputy friend had a Webley in 455 and mentioned that he'd like to shoot it, but couldn't find any ammo. I checked and both Hornady and Fiocchi make 455 ammo, expensive as it is. While checking, I noticed that Graf and Sons had new Fiocchi 455 brass at a good price and ordered 100 along with a set of Lee 455 dies. I loaded the rounds with 250 grain cast 45 colt bullets over a mild charge of TrailBoss. I presented him with the ammo, which he later claimed a kill on a charging armadillo. I patted myself on the back for a job well done. Later he announced that no more of the rounds would fire, so I got the Webley to check it out. It dawnwd on me that the revolver may have been modified to shoot 45ACP with moon clips. I secured the loaded moon clip in my M325 and it dropped right in. I then fired 66 rounds in 11 loaded moon clips loaded with 225 cast bullets(45ACP) with no problem. I cleaned and returned the revolver with an explanation of what happened. He's not a fan of moon clips, so I guess I'll have to get 100 auto rim brass and load him some conventional ammo. The point is, at least in this Webley, the cylinder had been shaved enough that the firing pin would not reliably strike the 455 rounds with their thin rims. Also, If I ever find an unmodified 455 1st or 2nd model S&W I would grab it up and shoot 455 reloads. BTW, the 455 is the same length as the 45 GAP. History sometimes does repeat it self. Bob!!

 

[Hondo44]

BTW, the 455 is the same length as the 45 GAP. History sometimes does repeat it self. Bob!!

That's another interesting tidbit.

This thread should be a "Sticky".

 

[Oyeboteb]

Good Luck. I would still advise against it.

At least ponder the following quotation first. My life has been a testament to its veracity.

"Good judgement is the result of experience.
Experience usually results from bad judgement."​

Oh... no worries!

I tried Thumb-pressing the .45 ACP Cartridges in the Cylinder Bores of the New Service .455 Eley, and pressing pretty hard, I could not get them to go in any farther than where they drop in to, nor any farther than a still acceptable Head Space.

Seen here, is one round of .45 ACP, and, one of .455 Webley -





A side view, from the side, showing the same two rounds but with the Cylinder closed -




Looking into the empty Chambers -




The Revolver in question, itself -

 

[2152hq]

Don't rely on the forward edge of a 455 chamber to reliably headspace any round. It was never intended to. It isn't cut to a square edge as in a 45acp or 9mmL.
Chamber specs are very different from it's cartridge specs and reading the latter and expecting the former can lead to trouble.

The Webley conversions in particular can be very nicely done,,or can be almost brutal to look at.
These revolvers were done by the thousands as cheaply and quickly as possible just so they could market them in the USA to sell for $12 out of a magazine ad.
Small individual workshops were the primary source of the conversion work.

Some are way out of spec w/ excessive headspace w/the 45acp/AR.
It pays to do a bit of measuring before shooting these.
Headspace in a revolver is just as important from a safety standpoint as any other firearm


IMHO, avoid commercial 45acp ammo in the conversions.
Webley cylinders of any Mark are like finding a diamond in the desert now. Damaging a cylinder on one pretty much leaves you with a parts gun. Once in a while you can find a cylinder though but you pay dearly.
I have the remains of a couple I've replaced for people over the years, the rest were gone. All from commercial 45acp ammo.

I wouldn't shoot the stuff in a S&W 455 converted either, but that's just old conservative me. I don't think the 455 had the same heat treat as the 1917,,but I could be wrong.

Take it easy on 'em,,their around 100yrs old or more and most have been through a couple of wars,,at least.

 

[Oyeboteb]

My two cents worth. A Deputy friend had a Webley in 455 and mentioned that he'd like to shoot it, but couldn't find any ammo. I checked and both Hornady and Fiocchi make 455 ammo, expensive as it is. While checking, I noticed that Graf and Sons had new Fiocchi 455 brass at a good price and ordered 100 along with a set of Lee 455 dies. I loaded the rounds with 250 grain cast 45 colt bullets over a mild charge of TrailBoss. I presented him with the ammo, which he later claimed a kill on a charging armadillo. I patted myself on the back for a job well done. Later he announced that no more of the rounds would fire, so I got the Webley to check it out. It dawnwd on me that the revolver may have been modified to shoot 45ACP with moon clips. I secured the loaded moon clip in my M325 and it dropped right in. I then fired 66 rounds in 11 loaded moon clips loaded with 225 cast bullets(45ACP) with no problem. I cleaned and returned the revolver with an explanation of what happened. He's not a fan of moon clips, so I guess I'll have to get 100 auto rim brass and load him some conventional ammo. The point is, at least in this Webley, the cylinder had been shaved enough that the firing pin would not reliably strike the 455 rounds with their thin rims. Also, If I ever find an unmodified 455 1st or 2nd model S&W I would grab it up and shoot 455 reloads. BTW, the 455 is the same length as the 45 GAP. History sometimes does repeat it self. Bob!!

Hi Roadranger,


Thanks for the mention of Graf & Sons carrying .455 Brass.


Too bad the .45 GAP does not have a rim!


Isn't there some shorter Cowboy Action round in .45 which came out awhile back? Same diameter as .45 Colt, but shorter?

 

[Oyeboteb]

Don't rely on the forward edge of a 455 chamber to reliably headspace any round. It was never intended to. It isn't cut to a square edge as in a 45acp or 9mmL.
Chamber specs are very different from it's cartridge specs and reading the latter and expecting the former can lead to trouble.

The Webley conversions in particular can be very nicely done,,or can be almost brutal to look at.
These revolvers were done by the thousands as cheaply and quickly as possible just so they could market them in the USA to sell for $12 out of a magazine ad.
Small individual workshops were the primary source of the conversion work.

Some are way out of spec w/ excessive headspace w/the 45acp/AR.
It pays to do a bit of measuring before shooting these.
Headspace in a revolver is just as important from a safety standpoint as any other firearm


IMHO, avoid commercial 45acp ammo in the conversions.
Webley cylinders of any Mark are like finding a diamond in the desert now. Damaging a cylinder on one pretty much leaves you with a parts gun. Once in a while you can find a cylinder though but you pay dearly.
I have the remains of a couple I've replaced for people over the years, the rest were gone. All from commercial 45acp ammo.

I wouldn't shoot the stuff in a S&W 455 converted either, but that's just old conservative me. I don't think the 455 had the same heat treat as the 1917,,but I could be wrong.

Take it easy on 'em,,their around 100yrs old or more and most have been through a couple of wars,,at least.

Yeah, makes sense..!

As for me, I have no desire to shoot .45 ACP in my New service .455 Eley, other than to try a couple rounds to see if it works.

In mine, .45 ACP and Moon Clips will not permit the Cylinder to close, and, .45 Colt is too long to fit.

The Cylinder has been shaved a little, and, it is difficult to understand why, or, what purpose it had served.

.45 ACP, especially Hardball, is a loussy choice for these anyway, as the Bullet is then way too small to properly occupy the Cylinder Bore, or to ever engauge the Rifeling well, as well as causing a somewhat spikey pressure once slamming awkwardly in to the Forcing Cone, compared to the relative friendlyness of ( ideally, properly sized/diameter ) Lead, so, fooey on the .45 ACP for these, indeed.

I will guess that the 'Heat Treatment' supposedly done to the Cylinders of the Model 1917 S&W and Colt Revolvers, was not done for the .455 Models, as well as that, both Companys were selling quite a lot of their .455 Revolvers to the UK by 1914, and, of course, the Model of 1917 was still more or less three years away at that time, so...I would not expect the .455s to have had 'Heat Treated' Cylinders.

 

[2152hq]

..'Isn't there some shorter Cowboy Action round in .45 which came out awhile back? Same diameter as .45 Colt, but shorter?'


45 Schofield

 

[deadin]

45 Schofield

Not short enough..

 

[Oyeboteb]

No, not the old Shoefield or Frankfurt shorter version of the .45 Colt...something new, some Cowboy Action round...

.45 Colt Case diameter but shorter than those two, and, a lot shorter than .45 Colt proper.

Maybe I dreamt it?? Lol...just seems like I remember hearing about it and I payed no attention at the time other than noting it.

 

[Oyeboteb]

".45 Cowboy Special"

http://www.cowboy45special.com/sitebuilder/images/colt-to-cowboy-comparison-205x171.jpg


http://www.cowboy45special.com/


.895 Inches in length.


Sounds like it might fit fine and get along well in some of our erstwhile .455s...or, depending on one's Head Space as per Cylinder to Frame condition, anyway.

But, this is mostly academic, ( or maybe suitable to odd-ball ones like mine where the Cylinder was shaved a little, but, nothing else was changed ) since honest to goodness .455 Webley/Eley Brass is available from Graf & Sons, as per Roadranger's above mention.

 

[Paladinpainter]

Oyeboteb, that Cowboy Action Shooting round your thinking of is the 45 Cowboy Special made by a cowboy by the name of Adirondack Jack. The dimensions are those of a .45Colt shortened to 45acp length. It has the case capacity of a 45acp and uses the same loading data. It was intended to solve ignition problems that happen when you put a little bit of powder in that huge 45Colt case; which it does superbly. I think Jack has Starline make the brass and it stands up well to reloading. How do its dimensions compare to the .455 cartridge ?

 

[Oyeboteb]

Oyeboteb, that Cowboy Action Shooting round your thinking of is the 45 Cowboy Special made by a cowboy by the name of Adirondack Jack. The dimensions are those of a .45Colt shortened to 45acp length. It has the case capacity of a 45acp and uses the same loading data. It was intended to solve ignition problems that happen when you put a little bit of powder in that huge 45Colt case; which it does superbly. I think Jack has Starline make the brass and it stands up well to reloading. How do its dimensions compare to the .455 cartridge ?

I have not found the technical dimensions yet for the .45 Cowboy Special Cartridge, other than it's length, but, I assume it would be the same as .45 Colt for diameter.

However, it does appear to pressume the use of a .452 Bullet, which is about .003 to small thereabouts...so...if all else were a 'go', one could easily form-fire it and or widen the upper half of it a little bit on a Re-Loading Press with the right die, and, then load a proper .455 Bullet.


Anyway, here's some fun and interesting info on the .455 Cartridge(s) -


I used to have a link to technical images showing all the dimensions of the various .455 Webley and .476 Enfield Pistol Cartridges, but I do not know where it is now.

introto455

 

[Muley Gil]

Back in the early '70s, I only owned two cartridge handguns: a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt and a Webley MK IV in .455. Don't know how I did it, but I was able to deepseat SWC bullets in .45 Colt brass and fire these in the Webley, using reduced powder loads, of course. I guess the headspace was a little slack at the caseheads.

Later, I found loaded CIL .455 ammo and used .45 ACP dies to reload the round.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Back in the early '70s, I only owned two cartridge handguns: a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt and a Webley MK IV in .455. Don't know how I did it, but I was able to deepseat SWC bullets in .45 Colt brass and fire these in the Webley, using reduced powder loads, of course. I guess the headspace was a little slack at the caseheads.

Later, I found loaded CIL .455 ammo and used .45 ACP dies to reload the round.

Hi Muley Gil,


Someone may have bored the 'step' out of the Cylinder Chambers/Bores, Bored them straight through to the same diameter as their Chamber portion then...since, the .455 Cylinder should have had a 'step' occuring roughly where the end or mouth of the Cartridge Case would be or a little past that anyway, thus incidentally preventing any longer Cartridge Cases from being chambered.


But, thinking on all these things now also leads me to want to review the respective rated or 'SAAMI' Pressures for the .455 Webley Cartridge, and, the .45 ACP.

If memory serve, 'SAAMI' Pressure allowance for .45 ACP is around 21,000 PSI.


Does anyone have data for the WWI era and there-after .455 Cartridge?


I am thinking it is likely around 16-18,000, but, this is just-a-guess...and it may not be as high as that.

Be nice to know, especially as regard or in respect for the British Revolvers.