.455 Second with pre-war target sight. Service dept. addition?

[cgt4570]

I want your thoughts!
(Warning. Pic heavy)
I know none of these left the factory with a target rear sight (at least not the first time). Plus this is the later 3-screw sight. The top strap has the original fixed sight groove in the center of the milling for the target sight. The sight doesn't have a serial number on the back so it was a new part when installed.

Anyway, I bought this one from an online auction several months back. Poor pics so I assumed it was one of the many butchered and refinished 'customized' guns back when they were a dime a dozen and it would be the basis for another one of my unique custom creations. I was swamped so I just threw it in one of the safes.

So while looking for another gun, I stumbled it and took it out in the sunlight. I cleaned it up a but and Wow!
Could the finish be original? It has a few minor rubs and some muzzle edge wear but for 104 years old, it's amazing. I see none of the tell-tale signs, even for the high quality factory refinish (but I was proven wrong once and I'm much more humble now).

What's the single proof stamp near the lanyard ring? It looks like an infinity symbol (sideways number 8) over two Roman numeral ones (II). I couldn't find it in any of my books or searches. It also appears the proof stamp is on top of the finish. If it wasn't for this stamp, I would have thought it could be one of the surplus .455s sold to the U.S. civilian market.

Could the later pre-war rear sight (and maybe even the King's red insert mirror front sight) have been added by the service department around or during wartime? The fit is impeccable.
I expected to find a date stamp on the left grip frame but no luck. I think I've heard they weren't stamping repair dates during the war?

SN 58252. All numbers match (except the stocks which I added from my stash). It had a set of 1917 stocks when I got it. I can't believe how vivid the case colors are.
It's still in the original .455 Eley/.455 Webley caliber.
Sorry for the poor phone pics. I didn't have the ambition to set up the SLR.

Thanks as always for your thoughts and opinions!

 

[Muley Gil]

"What's the single proof stamp near the lanyard ring?"

That's a crown over a Roman numeral II.

 

[cgt4570]

"What's the single proof stamp near the lanyard ring?"

That's a crown over a Roman numeral II.

Any idea who's proof it is? I couldn't find anything even close.
Several crowns that were much different over Roman numeral V, but no II.

 

[Modified]

First off, I'm jealous that thing is glorious. I adore guns like this.

Secondly, having owned similar guns, I'm of the opinion that a gun like this was actually re-finished, but either at the factory, or at King, or at some shop who does the job so perfectly that you would never know it.

However, the re-finish is essentially "original" likely because the re-finish was applied before any, or much, wear to the gun occurred, certainly no pitting or damage requiring any buffing. So the new finish is indistinguishable from original because the things that usually lead to a refinish (wear) isn't present, the new finish is applied as part of the sight upgrade.

I base this opinion on having owned, and handled guns, that have been modified, but have a finish which looks for all the world like it is 'original' but can't actually be original because the work done to the gun required a refinish.

The thing is that with a gun like this being "refinished" is essentially a non issue because of the quality of the finish. Because the gun is modified it's best evaluated as is anyway. If I were to sell a gun I would say that while I assume it is re-finished due to the sight work, anyone would think it is original without the sight work.

As a side note, I once bought an old pre-model 10 from a man who told me it was re-finished. I didn't believe him because I could find no sign of the re-finish. He told me however that he knew it was re-finished because he had scratched it once and sent it back to S&W for a re-finish to remove the scratch. It wasn't a deep scratch apparently, did nothing but remove some blue. The end result was a gun that was refinished, but anyone down the line from me who buys it will 100% assume it's original, and in a way it is.

 

[clang444]

Very nice. Have you tried 45 Colt in it?

 

[jimmyj]

Awesome weapon.
Right side of the King Front Sight: the rear most pin appears someone with a punch missed the pin a couple of times ??

 

[cgt4570]

Awesome weapon.
Right side of the King Front Sight: the rear most pin appears someone with a punch missed the pin a couple of times ??

Yes, the front sight has a few small mars from who knows what.
There's also a rub on the trigger guard and a tiny pin head spot of missing blue on the left side near the grips. Overall, I'd call it (refinished or whatever?) in the high 90's % bright factory-like blue remaining on the gun.

 

[glowe]

Well Chris, since you asked, I have to comment. I am happy that people like different things. That is what keeps things interesting here. Having said that, I can only see that fine condition revolver as an abomination. The choice of front sight could not have been worse and does not fit the character of a classic S&W in the least. Why not just slot the front sight base and put in a period factory style target blade?

OK - I feel better now.

 

[paplinker]

Well King was milling out large channels on the top strap for their products and not having to reblue the gun so I would think that some others would also be capable to do that type of work.

I am curious if you were to take the rear sight off if there is a serial number under it. If so it might help date when the work could have been done.

The work looks so well done I wouldn't be surprised if it's a non numbered new part.

 

[handejector]

The top strap has the original fixed sight groove in the center of the milling for the target sight. The sight doesn't have a serial number on the back so it was a new part when installed.

Could the finish be original?

Since you've had the rear sight off, you tell us- is the rear sight groove still in the white, or perhaps cold blued?


When King installed Target sights, they did not necessarily reblue the gun. They left them white sometimes I think. Other times, they may have cold blued them. I've see several guns with their Super Police fixed sights that were not refinished, even though that required a frame cut at the rear sight notch. They seem to have used a really effective cold blue of some kind.


That gun does not look refinished to me, and none of the modifications would have required a reblue.

 

[cgt4570]

Well Chris, since you asked, I have to comment. I am happy that people like different things. That is what keeps things interesting here. Having said that, I can only see that fine condition revolver as an abomination. The choice of front sight could not have been worse and does not fit the character of a classic S&W in the least. Why not just slot the front sight base and put in a period factory style target blade?

OK - I feel better now.

Gary,

I totally agree!
Like I said, I bid thinking it would be the start of another fun, unique project. I had a .44-40 in mind. I have the factory chambered cylinder and a new pre-war .44 Spl barrel in my drawer.
I think I bid about what the front sight is worth.
If this was an unmolested gun in this condition, it would be high $$$!
Now it's a conundrum. Probably too nice to mess with, but a modified gun none the less.
I haven't shot it yet. That will be the deciding factor for what I do with it. Keep as is, modify/customize to my imagination or sell as-is?
I have a similar .455 converted to .45LC by counter-boring the chambers. It wears nicely machined vintage 'Micro' sights front and back and a gunsmith-modified offset hammer. It's a fun gun.
I also have a 1917 frame that came to me with a longer aftermarket heavy barrel and post-war rear sight. Another cheap, fun gun probably built for bowling pin shoots or something similar back in the day.
And just to save my dignity, in addition to my several highly customized pre-war N's (all were basket cases or stripped frames to start with, I promise!) I've posted over the years, I have 2 .455 seconds and 2 1917s that haven't been messed with and never will be.

 

[6string]

I really like that 2nd model 455! In fact, in that condition and with those "period correct" modifications it would be right up my alley!
The appeal is totally subjective.

When Micro Sights branched off of King's they adapted the exact same front sight ramp style. I've even seen the same dimple marks around the pins. I believe those punch marks were intended to help retain the pin.

Nice score!
Jim

 

[cgt4570]

Since you've had the rear sight off, you tell us- is the rear sight groove still in the white, or perhaps cold blued?


When King installed Target sights, they did not necessarily reblue the gun. They left them white sometimes I think. Other times, they may have cold blued them. I've see several guns with their Super Police fixed sights that were not refinished, even though that required a frame cut at the rear sight notch. They seem to have used a really effective cold blue of some kind.


That gun does not look refinished to me, and none of the modifications would have required a reblue.

What's left of the rear sight channel along the topstrap is still blue.
The machine work for the tiny pre-war nut channel for the elevation screw is every bit as accurate as my RMs and OD's.

 

[cgt4570]

Since you've had the rear sight off, you tell us- is the rear sight groove still in the white, or perhaps cold blued?


When King installed Target sights, they did not necessarily reblue the gun. They left them white sometimes I think. Other times, they may have cold blued them. I've see several guns with their Super Police fixed sights that were not refinished, even though that required a frame cut at the rear sight notch. They seem to have used a really effective cold blue of some kind.


That gun does not look refinished to me, and none of the modifications would have required a reblue.

What's left of the rear sight channel along the topstrap is still blue. The above milling for the installed rear sight is still in the white. The milling marks are visible.

The machine work for the tiny pre-war nut channel for the elevation screw is every bit as accurate as my RMs and OD's

 

[cgt4570]

Very nice. Have you tried 45 Colt in it?

Yes. It only fits the Fiocchi .455 Webley that I have. I have some original British .455 Eley wartime surplus cartridges but they're still sealed. I don't want to open them.

 

[Modified]

What's left of the rear sight channel along the topstrap is still blue. The above milling for the installed rear sight is still in the white. The milling marks are visible.

The machine work for the tiny pre-war nut channel for the elevation screw is every bit as accurate as my RMs and OD's

Well there you go, original finish.

 

[handejector]

What's left of the rear sight channel along the topstrap is still blue. The above milling for the installed rear sight is still in the white. The milling marks are visible.

The machine work for the tiny pre-war nut channel for the elevation screw is every bit as accurate as my RMs and OD's

Then I'd say it is original finish.
That could be a King gun, or it could be gunsmith modified. The Factory sights could be purchased.
I don't think I'd modify it. It would sell to King gun collectors.

 

[Modified]

Then I'd say it is original finish.
That could be a King gun, or it could be gunsmith modified. The Factory sights could be purchased.
I don't think I'd modify it. It would sell to Sixgun Strumpet.

I agree with Handejector.

 

[glowe]

Gary,

I totally agree!
Like I said, I bid thinking it would be the start of another fun, unique project . . .

Here is a very simple option. Remove the front sight, do modifications needed to insert a Paine or Lyman blade. The gun would look awsome. Since 455 ammo is available, Fiocchi makes it, and reloading dies are cheap. Keep it as a 455 Target gun or sell it for an instant profit. My guess is that you could sell the King front sight and the gun for a very nice profit. I would be very interested in a converted Target 455!!

 

[Bullet Bob]

I wouldn't change a thing about the OP's gun. Perfect shooter as is.