Right back atcha buddy.
When this over, and it will happen, a lot of people should apologize.
I doubt they will be man enough to do so. They will conveniently forget it ever happened.
SIG P320 Discharges?
- Thread starter biku324
- Start date
- Status
When this over, and it will happen, a lot of people should apologize.
I doubt they will be man enough to do so. They will conveniently forget it ever happened.
When an apology comes due, I hope you can.
Oldsalt66
Member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2014
- Messages
- 910
- Reaction score
- 1,491
In the event that the safety deficiencies alleged to be present in the SIG P320 variants are ever actually authenticated and reproduced under controlled laboratory conditions, no apologies will be necessary, only acceptance of the facts.
On the other hand; those who chose to post drivel (which turned out to be fake news) in here from an anti gun propaganda organization such as TheTrace.org, need to man up and apologize immediately.
Last edited:
Oldsalt66
Member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2014
- Messages
- 910
- Reaction score
- 1,491
Only "bullies" mount a legal defense on their own behalf when accused in court over civil matters for which no forensic evidence has as yet been proven to exist.
"Nice guys" just roll over, pay up, and shut down regardless of their lack of culpability, because plaintiffs and their civil claims attorneys would never lie; neither do the ubiquitous gun grabbers.
And BTW: All firearms in the hands of Americans present "a perceived safety issue" to the gun grabbers, therefore, allowing them to be sold to the ordinary citizen is a public safety issue.
Guns kill people don't you know.
Last edited:
Rust E. Badge
Member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2016
- Messages
- 95
- Reaction score
- 212
The Safariland holsters that I purchased for my agency do not even touch the trigger. Final lock-up wirh the ALS is the ejection port for both Glock and Smith & Wesson pistols. But whatever the man thinks is right. I do not own and would never issue a Sig handgun. I even witnessed two of their 5.56 rifles so unreliable during an instructor level course that the officers left them lying in the sun behind the firing line after swapping forand Bushmaster carbines that worked. Probably better products now but sheesh.
Exactly, my Safarilands never touch the trigger,They release of the ejection port.
Nice word salad Kamala
Oldsalt66
Member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2014
- Messages
- 910
- Reaction score
- 1,491
Yup, and the current claims regarding allegations of spontaneous discharges involving the P320 variants are based on the pistols being said to have fired a round without any involvement of the trigger mechanism at all, intentional, unintentional, or by obstruction of, or design of, the holster; which renders "tests" that simulate and any rearward movement of the trigger at all and disengages the passive striker safeties, to be worthless.
Oldsalt66
Member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2014
- Messages
- 910
- Reaction score
- 1,491
Did you get your answer Gnarls?
Pardon me if so but as I understand it it takes three holes in the Swiss cheese to line up:
Compromised sear engagement, (1)
Failure of the striker safety lever, (2)
Sloppy slide to frame fit. (3)
All this is addressed in the YT video linked above.
There are several ways to repeat #1 such as carbon fouling, brass shavings, even food crumbs, and the Air Force's inspection criteria about poorly fitting parts.
There are several ways to replicate #2 such as fouling on the side surfaces of the lever, improper MIM manufacturing causing breaks, and spring weakness. Even so it takes very little movement of the trigger to get the safety out of the way even when it is working right.
There are any many of these guns with number three.
The point of the screw in the trigger was simply to move the safety lever away and fire the gun by slide wiggle. Another tester stuck his pocket knife in the trigger guard just enough. Another tester removed the safety lever from the gun. Another tester installed a lever from a different caliber. All were able to get the cap to fire by wiggling the slide.
Last edited:
- Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD): Individuals with NPD have a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, a need for admiration, and a lack of empathy for others. When faced with criticism or anything that threatens their inflated sense of self, they can react with rage or contempt and try to belittle others to make themselves appear superior. They may also exploit others for their own gain and be insensitive to their needs and feelings.
"Pardon me if so but as I understand it it takes three holes in the Swiss cheese to line up:
Compromised sear engagement, (1)
Failure of the striker safety lever, (2)
Sloppy slide to frame fit. (3)"
But... that's not what Bruce Gray of GrayGuns said??
I saw some GrayGuns videos before he visited Sig and now recanted.
Today I heard that the FBI recanted their finding.
Whatever, we'll understand someday.
Always appreciate your contribution here, Gnarls.
This was a great thread really.
Kind Regards!
BrianD
Oldsalt66
Member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2014
- Messages
- 910
- Reaction score
- 1,491
Bruce Gray's final report stated that 4 specific individual deficiencies including incorrect parts, needed to be simultaneously present in order for a spontaneous discharge to occur.
(4 obvious deficiencies that, had they been present, would have been easily discernable in forensic examinations of pistols that allegedly failed, but were, in fact, not present.)
Last edited:
BrianD,
I saw some GrayGuns videos before he visited Sig and now recanted.
Today I heard that the FBI recanted their finding.
Whatever, we'll understand someday.
Always appreciate your contribution here, Gnarls.
This was a great thread really.
Kind Regards!
BrianD
Yes, this has been a very fascinating thread on the topic.
Your contributions have made the thread more interesting and remarkable to read.
I too am very much looking forward to the day that the facts and truth can be released.
I appreciate the kind words.
Last edited:
smithman 10
US Veteran
I visited a local gunshop today to pick up a rifle that they repaired for me and darn, I plumb forgot to ask any of the folks ( I know many of them pretty well ) what the reaction of customers has been about the 320 controversy.
Reckon I just have an excuse to go back tomorrow!
Reckon I just have an excuse to go back tomorrow!
Yes.
Bruce spoke with candor and with detailed clarity on his extensive experience and expertise.
He did not appear to be speaking only to defend Sig Sauer or promote himself in any way.
I believe his assessment of what can cause the spontaneous discharges was completely accurate and based upon his extreme level of knowledge of the P320. Of course, anyone can argue that he has a "financial" motive to protect his reputation and business.
I also was about to visit my local gun shop this morning. I too am very interested in their comments on the topic. I'm going to visit them Monday, and I'll post what they say.
Again what I know please correct me, in every case but two after the event at the range or in the street, the responsible parties or command personnel grabbed the offending gun and made it safe thereby erasing the condition possibly. So in the summer of 2024 incident this was not done. That was the pistol which was carefully delivered in uncorrected condition to the FBI who found deficiencies in the mating surfaces of the sear. Similarly the Air Force carefully dismantled the gun which killed the airman and found defective parts and provided photos of how to check your gun.
….allegedly
…allegedly
Please do let us know and thanks!
Oldsalt66
Member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2014
- Messages
- 910
- Reaction score
- 1,491
The responsible parties didn't replace the 4 defective/incorrect parts including the takedown lever etc. which would have been easily discernable in the pistols.
I can't recall the 4 parts that ALL need to be incorrect, but they've been identified earlier in the thread; and had they been present in any of the plaintiff's pistols, forensic detection would have been a cinch.
Still waiting for what the Air Force determines, as well as the exact nature and circumstances of the incident.
I hate wading into such a heated discussion, but I'd suggest that the Titanic can serve as an analogy for the present P320 mess. It took a confluence of very improbable events to expose fatal, hidden faults with the ship's engineering and operation.
Likewise with this pistol. Perhaps the probability of certain factors combining to result in an "uncommanded" spontaneous discharge is almost negligible, say, on the order of one in a million. The problem for SIG is that this number is nonzero, and thus must be addressed, and so far they've pretty much stonewalled.
Ian McCollum is pretty sharp in assessing the merits (or lack thereof) of firearms designs. He doesn't commit to if there's an identifiable flaw with the P320, but I think he's recently put this whole business into its proper perspective. At the moment, the reputation of the P320 is tarnished by the various reports. So the question has become whether this can be restored, or whether it festers and ends up by extension irreparably damaging the reputation of the manufacturer. He rightly points out that if hypothetically you're an armorer choosing a new sidearm with which to equip your agency, do you choose the P320 or any one of a number of other high quality polymer framed, striker fired service pistols to which no controversy (and potential liability) is attached? The taint that's come to be associated with the P320 and its military M17/18 variations (justified or not) now supersedes any purely technical considerations.
Likewise with this pistol. Perhaps the probability of certain factors combining to result in an "uncommanded" spontaneous discharge is almost negligible, say, on the order of one in a million. The problem for SIG is that this number is nonzero, and thus must be addressed, and so far they've pretty much stonewalled.
Ian McCollum is pretty sharp in assessing the merits (or lack thereof) of firearms designs. He doesn't commit to if there's an identifiable flaw with the P320, but I think he's recently put this whole business into its proper perspective. At the moment, the reputation of the P320 is tarnished by the various reports. So the question has become whether this can be restored, or whether it festers and ends up by extension irreparably damaging the reputation of the manufacturer. He rightly points out that if hypothetically you're an armorer choosing a new sidearm with which to equip your agency, do you choose the P320 or any one of a number of other high quality polymer framed, striker fired service pistols to which no controversy (and potential liability) is attached? The taint that's come to be associated with the P320 and its military M17/18 variations (justified or not) now supersedes any purely technical considerations.
Last edited:
I wholeheartedly disagree with your first sentence, but wholeheartedly agree with your last three.
The anti-2A crowd will continue trying to attack our rights regardless of what we do or don't do, but the best thing we can do is to strive to be objective and speak the truth, so that we are the reasonable ones. If some person or corporation on "our side" is doing something wrong or cutting corners, we should speak out. Just because they make products we enjoy that relate to our 2A rights, gun companies don't always look out for our best interests. They are businesses who answer to stockholders and are in the end allied to no particular causes besides the cause of making money. They are often led by execs who don't give a crap what their company makes; they're just hired to be profitable. A gun company exec may one day lead PepsiCo, then move on to a firearms mfgr. There are several examples where the gun companies stabbed us in the back on gun legislative issues; Ruger, S&W, Springfield Armory, and Sig as examples. They are all subject to throwing us under the bus if it's expedient to do so for the almighty dollar or to save their azzes from litigation.
LVSteve
Member
I must have blinked at some point today, maybe while out getting an early dinner. Can someone post a link to the FBI statement recanting their previous report.
I'll just leave this here.
More and more is being exposed. Sig and their fanboys can apologize later.
More and more is being exposed. Sig and their fanboys can apologize later.
Steve, earlier in this thread, I posted a Sig statement to the effect that when it and the FBI, under mutually agreed upon conditions, attempted to replicate the failures that the FBI firearms lab observed with the P320 testing for the MI state police, they were unable to do so. Sig concurrently released an email from the FBI to Sig so stating. I included the FBI email in my post.
It's back in there somewhere in the many pages of this thread. Maybe a week ago or so...
It's back in there somewhere in the many pages of this thread. Maybe a week ago or so...
Going off in the holster is different as several officers have been injured that way. The AD's you talk about was not treating the gun with respect. The Sig is way past that.
LVSteve
Member
Ah, now I remember, Sig pointed out that the slide cutaway compromised the spring retention and operation.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
