45ACP/AR

[jrplourde]

Just started using Quick Load internal ballistics software. One nice piece of work. In any event, I'm keen on loading 45ACP in my new 625. I also purchased a number of 45AR shells.

On QuickLoad the saami level for the acp is 21000 psi and only 17000 psi for the auto rim.

I found that strange so I confirmed it on the saami web site. There is no listing for the AR in psi but the crusher data is acp at 18000 cup and it's 15000 for the auto rim. My Lyman manual tends to agree.

Any thoughts????

Bob

 

[Tom C]

I have a Dillon 550B and I use the same die setup to load both .45 ACP and .45 AR by swapping shell plates. I don't worry about pressure limits because my loads are so mild they don't approach the limit. I mostly shoot mild loads of WW231 with 200 gr. SWC, both lead and Hornady jacketed, in my 1911s and 625s. If I want higher performance, I will go to a different gun and caliber.

 

[tbury]

Load tables for AR are lower because older guns and brass could not take the same pressures as 45acp. Modern brass and guns are safe with AR loads equal to .45acp.

 

[Roadranger]

I agree with TomC in the loading process. The AutoRim was not designed for speed or power, but simply a way around using moon clips for the ACP rounds. I have never seen any ammo loaded by Remington with anything by lead low velocity bullets. I'm aware that some of the smaller niche manufacturers load the AR with hot loads. More power to them. If one needs more power, there are the N-frame magnums and the 45 Colt. Bob!

 

[Harrison]

There might be some old ballon head 45 AR shells still out there somewhere, so to be safe from the lawyers, the loading manuals reduce load data for 45 AR. If you use modern Starline 45 AR brass it is actually stronger than 45acp brass. You can use 45acp loads, or even a little bit hotter in Starline brass.

Same thing with the 6ppc. You see the loading manuals using really light loads, and you look and they are using old Sako brass which is no longer produced. The Sako brass was both weak and soft. Modern Lapua brass can be loaded about 30% hotter.

 

[Harrison]

Load tables for AR are lower because older guns and brass could not take the same pressures as 45acp. Modern brass and guns are safe with AR loads equal to .45acp.

The older guns were made to shoot 45 acp. They should be strong enough for 45 acp level loads. The 45 AR case came along after WWI.

 

[ddixie884]

The .45AR was first loaded with a soft swaged lead bullets. The shallow rifling caused RP to load them at approx 750 fps. This resulted in a much lower pressure rating than the .45acp. The existence of .455 cal guns with shaved cylinders may have also had something to do with it.

 

[Jellybean]

There are balloon head cases in many different calibers and care should be used in any of them.

The story I heard was: When SAAMI set the pressure limit on the .45AR, the only factory load was Remingtons original lead RN, which, due to it's low pressure, set the standard pressure just as low. The low pressure had nothing to do with the strength of the guns shooting it, but rather to the leading issues with the soft lead bullets used.

Modern brass has the same internal dimensions as .45ACP and the ACP data will work just fine in them. However, since the SAAMI pressure limit has never changed, most loading data sources will not provide .45AR pressures that exceed it.

 

[Smithboomer]

+2 with Tom C. I use the same powder charge and same bullet in both .45 ACP and .45 AR. The only change I make is the shell holder on my press.

 

[Skip Sackett]

No problem with 45AR in my guns!

Well, I'm not saying for anyone else to do this but, I load some pretty heavy 45AR loads in my M625JM. They come from the same Speer manual as "THE LOAD" does!

My 240gr LSWC 45AR load leaves the 4" tube of my M625JM right at 1100fps. No sticky extraction and the primers look good too. From the same gun I run 200gr LSWC @ 650fps! Now, what more could you want from a caliber?

It makes things move downrange and will work for self defense or small game hunting, maybe even small deer at close range.

Here is a picture of some of the loads in both 45ACP and 45AR I run through my M625JM.

 

[jrplourde]

I have to agree with Skip. I've read more than once that the 45AR is actually a bit stronger than the 45ACP. It does have a bit more case capacity.

A 240gr bullet at 1100fps has to be a hand full. I've seen loads of 255gr over 14.5gr of 2400. Hell that's more powder than I use for the .357.

It's strange cus I thought saami SET the standard, not FOLLOWED some thing else.

Bob

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

If you're going to load AR, then make sure and get some Starline brass. The RP stuff will fail you quickly and cause you to fall off the "Cussers Anonymous" wagon!

I've been loading 240 and 255 Keith SWCs to about 900 fps in Starline brass and using Unique for my 625 Mountain Gun. Shoots great and knocks the snot out of Texas deer!

 

[jrplourde]

If you're going to load AR, then make sure and get some Starline brass. The RP stuff will fail you quickly and cause you to fall off the "Cussers Anonymous" wagon!

I've been loading 240 and 255 Keith SWCs to about 900 fps in Starline brass and using Unique for my 625 Mountain Gun. Shoots great and knocks the snot out of Texas deer!

I've heard that Remington AR brass was not very good before. I bought some Starline a few months ago to try it out. Loved it and now waiting for a back order.
Bob

 

[Jellybean]

SAAMI does set the standard, but it is usually done by examining the guns and ammunition that are made for that cartridge.

 

[Skip Sackett]

SAAMI does set the standard, but it is usually done by examining the guns and ammunition that are made for that cartridge.

I would suppose that they would use the worst case scenario to set that standard too. They aren't going to use the most indestructible firearm as THE standard. They most likely will use the pot metal reject to determine that "safe" standard.

FWIW

 

[VAdoublegunner]

You can load any equivalent load up to 45ACP+P (23K psi) for your 625 in modern 45AR brass. Pearce has discussed it in Handloader on occasion. I routinely use the same loads as I do for standard 45 ACP in 45AR brass. Starline makes the best 45AR brass.

It is easy to get 45 Colt equivalent loads (950fps) with 45 AR brass and a 250gr LSWC in the 625 and it is not too hot or excessive on the gun. Many people find more moderate levels pleasant to shoot for paper punching.

 

[wiley]

Another thought, there are any number of shaved cylinder converted Webleys that shoot 45 AR. They should be run no faster than 6-700fps. The earliest ones, MkI, II, and III are blackpowder proofed only. A SAAMI 45acp load is a proof load in the MkVI

 

[jrplourde]

You can load any equivalent load up to 45ACP+P (23K psi) for your 625 in modern 45AR brass. Pearce has discussed it in Handloader on occasion. I routinely use the same loads as I do for standard 45 ACP in 45AR brass. Starline makes the best 45AR brass.

It is easy to get 45 Colt equivalent loads (950fps) with 45 AR brass and a 250gr LSWC in the 625 and it is not too hot or excessive on the gun. Many people find more moderate levels pleasant to shoot for paper punching.

I could not agree more. The cylinder is good for 30K.

I have to date loaded my Starline brass several times with ACP max loads and see no signs of splits.

The 45 ACP and Rimz moon clips is easy by hand and has some advantages but I do love the AR.

Bob

 

[Skip Sackett]

Well......................

I could not agree more. The cylinder is good for 30K.

I have to date loaded my Starline brass several times with ACP max loads and see no signs of splits.

The 45 ACP and Rimz moon clips is easy by hand and has some advantages but I do love the AR.

Bob

Bob,

I think the cylinder on a newer M625 is good for 40,000psi but its open frame is the weak link. The cylinders of both measure the same in OD. I know there is the weak point of the bolt notch but still, the Ruger isn't that much different. The single action of the Blackhawk is a much stronger frame.

Linebaugh has a lot to say about this, take it or leave it, I say. The Ruger has eaten some whompers. I just cannot get myself to feed those to the M25 -7; yet. Maybe one cylinder full just to try them, maybe.

 

[ddixie884]

What is the SAAMI spec on .460 Rowland?

Clark will chamber your 625 for it. It is a standard conversion, well thought of.

 

[Skip Sackett]

What is the SAAMI spec on .460 Rowland?

Not sure but LoadData.com has some loads from the Hodgdon site for it listed with a 39,200CUP as a maximum load. By the way, that is for a 230gr XTP @ 1336fps from a 5" barrel!

Can you say; "WOW!"

 

[Jellybean]

Are there any factory firearms chambered in the .460 Rowland? If it is still considered a wildcat round there may not be any SAAMI specs on it at all.

 

[ddixie884]

I keep my 625s, 3in & 4in loaded with Buffalo Bore .45 Super 230gr jhp in clips. 28,000 psi, easy extraction, not a lot louder or much more recoil than Hornady 230gr +P jhp. Close to the same POI..........