460 Rowland loads in a 625

[lilwoody]

I just acquired a 5" 625-4 by happenstance. I was looking for a 4 or 5" 629 and came across this one. I had always wanted one but never really looked for one.. It doesn't fill the niche I was looking for though but couldn't pass it up. I was looking for something that made 800+ ft/lbs of energy and seeing how it's a N frame was wondering as anyone loaded to or near 460 Rowland pressures in it.
I have loaded Rowlands for my sons he built on a PT 1911 with the kit from Rowland but since the Rowland brass seems to be made from unobtainium we used ACP brass and AA7.
Then again I may just try to trade it for a 629 or a Redhawk

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

460 Roland is at 40,000 PSI, That is pretty high for a hogged out N-Frame.

45 Colt +P is at 23,000 PSI. That seems to be the limit of S&W 45 Caliber cylinders! 44 Mag is 36,000 PSI.

Ivan

 

[Lowa]

No, it's not rated for a .452 at 40k psi. The RedHawks are up for 40k, but that's a redhawk.

There is a lot of metal in a 1911 chamber and even more metal in the frame that covers the rest of the barrel, should it fail.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Some people reportedly shoot 460 Roland in their S&W 45ACP revolvers but that's a bit much for me. 45 Super is my limit.

The 45ACP (+P) has a SAAMI max of 23K PSI.

The wildcat 45 Super is generally considered a 25K-28K PSI cartridge.

The wildcat 460 Roland is generally stated to be a 40K CUP cartridge.

The cylinder notch depths on my 45ACP M325s & 625 leave between .026"-.030" of metal to contain the chamber pressures at this minimum thickness point.

My M29s & M629s have metal .039" thick in this same spot to contain the 44 Magnum's 36K PSI / 40K CUP SAAMI spec pressures.

The 460 Roland brass is .062" (1/16") longer than 45ACP brass but both have a COAL" max of 1.275" so it's extra 5.6% case capacity can't be used in a pistol & mainly serves to prevent it from chambering in a 45ACP.

In a revolver, which doesn't have unsupported chamber issues like in some pistols, they can use strong 45ACP brass loaded to higher pressures per some articles, but their hazard is having a SAAMI headstamped cartridge loaded to non-SAAMI pressures getting into a weaker gun by accident.

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[STORMINORMAN]

There must be easier (a double charge of Bullseye?) much less expen$ive ways (perhaps in a 9mm?) to blow up a firearm...

But, why?

Cheers!

P.S. re: minimum cylinder wall thickness 45 vs. 44 calibers: Is this why no N-frame S&Ws in 45 Casull?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

P.S. re: minimum cylinder wall thickness 45 vs. 44 calibers:
Is this why no N-frame S&Ws in 45 Casull?

Your question is probably facetious but...

Too many reasons:

-the max COAL" of the 454 Casull (1.765") is .155" longer than the 44MAG so it wouldn't likely be a good fit for the 1.88" long N-frame cylinder window for starters.

-the N-frame limits the cylinder width to 1.710" wide. Even if it was only a (5) shot cylinder, with the stop notches in between the chambers, it wouldn't likely still be thick enough. X-frame (5) shot cylinders are 1.910" wide.

-the frame isn't strong enough

-the 454C max SAAMI pressure is 65K psi while the 44MAG is 36K psi.

-S&W by-passed the 454C for their 460MAG, which is also a 65K psi cartridge & has 33.6% more case capacity than the 454C.

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lol, at this scale the 460 Roland doesn't even show up
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[rockquarry]

I just acquired a 5" 625-4 by happenstance. I was looking for a 4 or 5" 629 and came across this one. I had always wanted one but never really looked for one.. It doesn't fill the niche I was looking for though but couldn't pass it up. I was looking for something that made 800+ ft/lbs of energy and seeing how it's a N frame was wondering as anyone loaded to or near 460 Rowland pressures in it.
I have loaded Rowlands for my sons he built on a PT 1911 with the kit from Rowland but since the Rowland brass seems to be made from unobtainium we used ACP brass and AA7.
Then again I may just try to trade it for a 629 or a Redhawk

Yes, trading for a .44 Magnum revolver makes a lot of sense.

An arbitrary requirement of 800 ft. lbs. is more of a textbook number than anything with great practical value in the field. You might consider Sierra's .45 ACP revolver loads; safe in your gun and considerably warmer than other loads for this chambering if you choose to keep your revolver.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

BLUEDOT37:

I was not trying to be facetious in my query, and I appreciate the answer and illustration as well!

It is clearly the LENGTH, not necessarily the caliber that makes the difference.

As far as the 5 vs.6 shots in an N-frame's puny(?) 1.710" wide cylinder is concerned, note that S&W doesn't seem to have a problem in fitting 6 shots of 44 Magnum (or 45 Colt) with the notches aligned with the chambers: that was one of the concepts I was commenting on... That minimum wall thickness at the cylinder notch you referred to as being 0.O26-0.030" in the 45acp versions vs. the 0.039" for 44 Magnum...?

Why would the notches even come into play pressure-wise if they were, in fact, offset as on a 5 round cylinder?

Thanks, again for your lengthy(sic) response and image!

Cheers!

P.S. I kind'a recall someone asking about .452" 300+gr wadcutters for one of these SuperCaliber Revolvers: if S&W can market a semi-automatic pistol designed and chambered to shoot 38 Special wadcutters why not a 5 shot N-frame designed to shoot 454 Casull wadcutters as well? Looks like they would fit lengthwise in that 1.88" long cylinder and all (maybe?) of the 460 Roland loadings as well?

 

[Lowa]

Norm, the 44 magnum was designed as opposed to a 45 magnum due to power levels in an N frame sizes gun that were aimed at being a hot 44. Maybe a hot rodded 45 blew up because of 458 bullets in a 454 throat, or maybe the N frame size gun really couldn't handle that steady loads of magnum 45s. Either way, they make a 45 colt revolver, a 45 ACP revolver, and a 44 magnum revolver. I say you split the difference and get an X frame. Then you only have to worry about how weak the loads are.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

But those X-frames are just so BIG...!

Cheers!

P.S. My Super Blackhawk Hunter is as far as I can go in that direction: no Water Buffalos, Elephants or Veloceraptors around these parts!

 

[BLUEDOT37]

It is clearly the LENGTH, not necessarily the caliber that makes the difference.

Concerning the 454C in a N-frame I think it's both that are problematic.
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That minimum wall thickness at the cylinder notch you referred to as being 0.O26-0.030" in the 45acp versions vs. the 0.039" for 44 Magnum...?

Yes, that's the metal thickness from the bottom of the cylinder stop notch to the inside of the chamber wall, usually the thinnest point that still has to support the chamber's pressure.
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Why would the notches even come into play pressure-wise if they were, in fact, offset as on a 5 round cylinder?

They don't in a revolver designed for it.
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As far as the 5 vs.6 shots in an N-frame's puny(?) 1.710" wide cylinder is concerned, note that S&W doesn't seem to have a problem in fitting 6 shots of 44 Magnum (or 45 Colt) with the notches aligned with the chambers: that was one of the concepts I was commenting on...

Apparently S&W never saw a reason to come out with a (5) shot M625 45 Colt revolver, which would be an easy job & have stronger cylinders, because then they would have to try & formalize wildcat 45 Colt loads to be SAAMI certified only to end up with a more powerful 45 Colt cartridge that could fit into 100 year old 45 Colt SAAs with devastating results. That wasn't going to happen.

The 45 Colt is only a 14K SAAMI max pressure cartridge so the thinner metal (at the stop notch) isn't an issue for it.

Many knowledgeable authorities state that since the S&W 45ACP revolvers are designed to handle 45ACP(+P) ammo, at 23K psi max, that S&W 45 Colt revolvers can also be pressed to the same power loads safely too.

Upping either ammo to 45 Super pressures further closes the gap to the magnum cartridges.

I took that a step further with my 45WSM, a shortened 45 Win Magnum case loaded to 45 Super pressures, to give you near 45 Colt powder capacities in a lightly modified 45ACP revolver.
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[BLUEDOT37]

But those X-frames are just so BIG...!

Just get one of the "small" ones.

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[ddixie884]

Number 11 Speer gives a load of 6.8gr of Herco under their 260gr JHP in .45acp. and the other selected older manuals give some others. I shoot Buffalo Bore .45Supers in my 625s and Starline makes the brass I think you could work up some Super level loads with a cast bullet and a large meplat that would surprise you. That said I am a real moon gun guy and though I own a coupla three .44 Magnums I don't shoot them much.......

 

[Lowa]

But those X-frames are just so BIG...!

Cheers!

P.S. My Super Blackhawk Hunter is as far as I can go in that direction: no Water Buffalos, Elephants or Veloceraptors around these parts!

I very much enjoy my 45acp 45lc round butt redhawk. 40k psi 45 colts are not bad, but there isn't much you can't kill with it.

My 4" .500 is in the top 5 of my favorite guns. The balance, the feel, everything is so good. I recommend you get a friend to let you shoot various loads from theirs.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

45Super & 45WSM case capacities

I shoot Buffalo Bore .45Supers in my 625s and Starline makes the brass
I think you could work up some Super level loads with a cast bullet and a large meplat that would surprise you.

S-L makes some good brass & their 45 Auto Rims are just as strong, if not stronger, than their 45 Super brass.

I load either case with 11.3gr/Power Pistol under a 185gr JHP with a 1.220." COAL.

That became my max load when I started working up my first loads in my Colt Govt. Mk.IV Series 70, which I modified for 45Super, because any higher would result in bulged cases in it's unsupported barrel.

I've stuck with that as my max load in all my 3rd Gen 45xxs & 325/625s too but I'm sure that load could be inched higher in these guns since they have no support issues.

Personally I've never liked cramming a heavier than standard weight bullet in "pumped up" small capacity cases, 200gr is my heaviest 45Super load.

Which, again, is why I thought a longer than 45ACP case length would be great fun for heavier loads in 45ACP revolvers & came up with the 45WSM
idea.

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The meplat on this cast Rim Rock 270gr Keith SWC-FB is .348".
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The .452" meplat on this Rim Rock 225gr DEWC-FB is the apex.

It's seated .466" deep in the case.
(That would use 69.2% of a 45ACP's case capacity & 55.2% of the 45WSM)

The 270gr SWC seats .422" deep.
(That would use 62.7.2% of a 45ACP's case capacity & 50.0% of the 45WSM)

A HDY 230gr XTP seats to just .308" deep.
(That would use 45.8% of a 45ACP's case capacity & 36.5% of the 45WSM)

(45AR & 45Super case capacities are nearly identical but slightly less than the 45ACP's while the 45WSM holds ~25.6% more
The 460 Roland holds 5.6% more than a 45ACP but can only be used in a revolver where COAL" isn't an issue.)
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[steelslaver]

Ruger vs S&W cylinders. Both the Super Blackhawk and the N frame cylinders are 1.71 in diameter.. The Ruger design puts the stop notch off center to the chamber even on 6 shot cylinders. The frame is also beefier.

But a model 25 or 625 had the same frame are a 44 mag. So the frame is not the problem with higher pressure loads. But, the 45 colt cylinder has the same stop notch depth as a 45 acp and is not on bit weaker a 23,000psi acp will not blow up a 25/625 and neither will a 23,000psi 45 colt. A S&W 45 colt loaded to fire a 255gr slug at 1100fps. won't blow them up or one of mine would have gone kerblooeee by now.

A 255gr slug going 1000fps will go all the way though any animal in the Americas ad kill them just as dead as a 1400fps 240gr 44 mag.

I have lots of 45 colts and only 4 44 mags and I never use the 44 mags.

Want more case capacity for a 45acp revolver? Ream the chambers to accept 45 win mags and load those with heavy bullets. Just don't go to the factory 40,000psi levels. Is you stick in the 25,000 psi range you will never blow up a 25/625. I have a couple of 45 colts cut to fire acp in full moon clips. I have made up loads using 45win mag cases and used them in those guns as the 45WM case is just a bit shorter than a 45 colt and has a heavier base section.

Or you could go with the 44 mag like most people.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

And then there's the Model 69: an L-frame 5-shot 44 Magnum revolver with (per S&W) "a strong frame and barrel built for continuous Magnum usage"... But still no chance for a 460 Roland, right? Or, could the cylinder be re-chambered and the barrel converted to .452"?

Cheers!

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Just trying to be cautious

Ream the chambers to accept 45 win mags and load those with heavy bullets. Just don't go to the factory 40,000psi levels.

I initially considered just doing it this way too but even knowing I'd never buy any factory 45 WIN MAG ammo, & that I'm the only one who shoots my guns, I just didn't feel comfortable going that route now, for my use, or later down the road when I'm not around & can't oversee it's use.

When the brass for the 45WSM is cut to 45 S&W Schofield (aka:45 Short Colt) length, at 1.095" (min 1.090" - max 1.100"), and the chambers' shoulders are reamed to the proper corresponding depth, an inserted factory length 45 WIN MAG cartridge will be too long to be able to close the cylinder on, thus avoiding that potential over-pressure situation.

No matter what the case capacity size is people have to reload responsibly, of course.

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