460 S&W reloading issue

[tumbleturn]

I have been reloading for over 40 years and never run into the issue I am having with my 460 mag.
Years ago I was at the local range and a guy with a lever gun blew himself up. The round in the barrel split the chamber with enough violence to cause the rounds in the tube to go off and his left hand was tore apart bad. While I was helping out he made a comment about how he must have put a double charge in the barrel. There was a bit of conversation with him and the other guys about his load before he was hauled away in the ambulance. From what I have read it may be the other way around. It may not have been a double charge. He was not loading his rounds over 50 percent case capacity. I have read articles that have talked about guns (Rifle cartridges) blowing up from being under charged. Basically the theory is instead of the primer igniting from the back and the powder burning towards the front. Because the powder is below the primer flash hole It ignites all the way along the top of powder back to front and burns up very fast causing an over pressure problem. That is the Theory I have read.
Now my Issue. I am using Winchester Mag primers.I recently adjusted my cylinder gap from .009 to .005. So I started from scratch with my loads. Hornady Lists a max load of 38.4gr of LiLGun under there 300gr XTP Mag. Hodgdon on there website list 40.0gr of LilGun as there starting load. With the old cylinder gap I tried LilGun and never could get to where I had pressure problems or much past 1600fps. With the new cylinder gap First load was with 38.0gr that is 7 grains less than max I had tried before. The first round was right at 1800fps and the case had just a little resistance to remove it. I figured I was right at max. Next round was 37.5gr the speed was still at 1800 and the case seemed to be slightly more sticky to the cylinder when I removed it. Anyway I get down to 35.5gr and nothing changed 1800fps and slightly sticky. So I give up an it and give H110 a try. Hodgdon lists 38.0 as min and Hornady has 31.1gr as minimum 39.3 as max. I start at 36 grains Same deal but speed closer to 1700fps case a little sticky. I end up at 34.0gr same deal no speed decrease and cases still sticky. I tried several other powders after that including but not limited to Enforcer, IMR-4227, 1680 and a couple others. They responded as I expected. I started on the light side then increased till they got sticky. Velocity started low and increased till max was achieved.
When I got home I remembered reading way back when I started reloading that with 296 which is the same as H110 That you should not load 296 below 90 percent of max because it could cause over pressure. I have looked through my old manuals and have yet to find the warning. Between the old warning and remembering the guy with the lever gun I got thinking and then seriously brave/Stupid. My next trip out to test I start with H110 at Hodgdons minimum load of 38.0gr hung on with my left hand and let it go the gun and my hand where still in one piece. That is 10 percent below what Hodgdon lists as max. The chronograph was a little over 1700fps. When I opened the cylinder the case just slid out. I got up to 41.5 grains before the case got a little sticky and 1800fps. So I did the same thing with LilGun used Hodgdons minimum ( about 10 percent below there listed max) hung on with left hand and everything was OK. So I started increasing somewhere around 1860fps the case got a little sticky. And the accuracy was real good. So while I was out there I figured I would work on a light load. My plan for a light load is 230 Lee lead bullet going about 1800fps. I had it going 2150fps with H110 but it was making more of an impression on my steal plates than I liked so I figure I would slow them down some. So to save some money instead of using 52grs of H110. I would use Bluedot. I started with 29.0gr at 1800fps and worked my way up to 31.5 before getting sticky just over 2000fps. So I decided on 29.0gr. Well yesterday my buddy wanted to do a little testing and came by we went out setup the chronograph he started with his loads I figured I would sight my open sights on the 460 for the 230 grain lee lead bullet over 29.0gr of Bluedot. I took 20 rounds with me. I just put one in and shot it went to eject it before making a sight adjustment and it came out hard. I ran one across the chronograph it was over 2000fps and ejected hard. I ran a second one across it was about 1800fps and practically feel out. I shot a couple more and decided I needed to take the rest apart before I hurt myself.
Any comments welcome. But a couple of observations/questions. With the bluedot should I go with regular primers instead of Magnum primers? Bluedot is filling the case fairly full. As for the H110/296 and LilGun. do they need to be near case capacity so you get even ignition round to round. My thoughts on it are would the lighter loads ignite better if I first tilted the gun in the air brought it slowly down to level so the powder would be up against the flash hole opposed to tilting the gun forward then leveling it slowly so the powder is away from the flash hole. Years ago when I worked up a load for my Sharps rifle in 45-120 before I could find smokless data for it other than black powder data. This is before computers and Quickload so I was guessing the best I could. With the starting loads I came up with I would get hang fires till the case got to a certain level I cant remember if I tried tilting the gun up to get the powder around the flash hole or not.
Any and all comments welcome
Mike
P.S.
After the ambulance hauled away the guy with the lever gun the rest of us at the range where looking at each other and someone suggested we just put all his stuff in his car and lock it up. We did the best we could to look out for the property of our fellow shooter.

 

[AmStaff64]

Mike - this seems like good info but REAL hard to read the way it is written.

Give me sometime to digest it and I may have a reply.

 

[glenwolde]

The only question I found in that was...

"With the bluedot should I go with regular primers instead of Magnum primers?"

What does your reloading reference say?

 

[tumbleturn]

I am trying to find out if anybody has had issues downloading H110/296 or LilGun and over pressure that is what I am getting at. Basically when I got below 90 percent of what Hodgdon recommended I had what looked like pressure issues and the chronograph was sorta backing it up. The difference between the Hornady data and Hodgdon is hornady uses regular primers and Hodgdon mag primers.
Also with the Bluedot is the Mag primers causing Erratic and at times excessive ignition for a powder like Bluedot. It is interesting All the reloading data I see for the 460 is with mag primers. Than hornady comes along with downloaded data but they are using regular primers.
I apologize for being so wordy. But for over 40 years I have worked in Machine tool maintenance. When trouble shooting a problem it is easier to sort through too much info then being denied need to know info.
I hope this helps
Mike

 

[ruggyh]

If you have not measured your cylinder throats you need to so as I suggested in your previous thread.

I suspect your gun has tight throats, I know and documented issue with your model gun.

The reported issue with undercharged load detonating is with very slow powders and in large rifle cases (read PO Ackley) and morphed into this internet legend regardless of cartridge or powder. It has NEVER been duplicated in the lab- I wont add any more.

Load the with starting loads and work up as you have been doing.

Sticky extraction is at near MAX- roughly at 62KPSI (measured) with Starline brass in 460 S&W.

There is no magic here once a load reaches that point in YOUR gun and load you are done without regard to what other published material achieved regardless of it source- the conditions they tested at are not what testing with- it was only that source results.

Velocity and peak pressure are not interchangeable and can be inferred or extrapolated.

Velocity is a function of the total pressure under the curve and not peak pressure.

This why fast powder are poor choice in large cross sectional cases and fail to produce best velocity.

Down loading H110 (and other pressure sensitive ball powders) results in poor ignition leading to potential hang fires and bullet obstructions (bullet lodged in the barrel).
While using magnum powders may help with this to some degree it is best to choose a different powder for reduced loads- though thus does not seem what you are trying to achieve.

It would be extremely difficult to blow up a 460 or 500 using H110 unless the reloader simply ignores having to drive the cases out of cylinder and reloading and continues to run roads through it until the cylinder fatigues enough to fail.
Note: 300 XTP MAG with 100% case fill of H110 will only produce about 73KPSI (measured) in a correctly chambered firearm.

A 29 grain load of Blue Dot with the lee 230 Bullet should not have any pressure issue, I calculate it at roughly 30KPSI.

Again this leads me to believe you have tight throats and potential forcing cone issue.

Slug the barrel and measure your throats.

be safe
Ruggy

 

[Wise_A]

(1) Light charges will have erratic velocities. 1800-2000 fps is not that much of a swing, I've seen velocities range 100 fps from shot-to-shot, in 700 fps loads.

(2) Pressure signs are unreliable. You can load a case light and have it stick because the case doesn't expand fully before gases and soot seal it into the chamber.

(3) You should not download H110/WW296 because it can squib--that powder just doesn't like it.

(4) Flashover is an old wives' tale.

(5) Magnum primers will not hurt Blue Dot, so long as you back off a little from the standard primer maximums.

(6) What does your load data say? I don't feel like going all the way down to the basement for my Lyman book and coming back up, and the Hodgdon manual on my phone doesn't list any cast bullets. Oh, and neither does Alliant.

 

[buck460XVR]

What Ruggy told you is Gospel when it comes to reloading for your .460. My .460 has tight throats. Upper end near max loads from the books are impossible......my max loads are much lower than those in the books. I learned a long time ago to start low and work up to the point where extraction became sticky, and then back down a tad. Since I'm not hunting dangerous game(only deer and 'yotes), I don't need max loads. I need loads that are accurate and consistent. I have come to find I like IMR4227 under a 300 grainer for most of my shooting. IMR4227 fills the case, ignites easily and it is impossible to overcharge. It also downloads fairly well altho it does get dirty when downloaded.

 

[tumbleturn]

What Ruggy told you is Gospel when it comes to reloading for your .460. My .460 has tight throats. Upper end near max loads from the books are impossible......my max loads are much lower than those in the books. I learned a long time ago to start low and work up to the point where extraction became sticky, and then back down a tad. Since I'm not hunting dangerous game(only deer and 'yotes), I don't need max loads. I need loads that are accurate and consistent. I have come to find I like IMR4227 under a 300 grainer for most of my shooting. IMR4227 fills the case, ignites easily and it is impossible to overcharge. It also downloads fairly well altho it does get dirty when downloaded.

What Ruggy wrote has nothing to do with what I am learning about reloading thanks to this cartridge. I do respect what Ruggy has written. He seems to know a lot. What you wrote has nothing to do with my problem. I respect what you wrote. But neither of you is thinking outside the box. You have to go back and read what I first wrote in this thread. The answer is there but requires a twist. It could be why the lever gun blew up. What I have learned since I started this post explains a lot of what I have done in the past. And issues I have run into. Today I could take the same load. Powder charge, Primer, The way I crimped it everything exactly the same. The worst load I could either make the round leave the barrel anywhere from a fairly consistent 1642 fps to 1680fps. Or I could make the round leave the barrel at a much more radical velocity difference of 1844fps to 1943fps and have major pressure issues. According to Quickload "that has its own issues" the difference between the slow velocities and the fast velocity's is a 40 percent increase in pressure. That is huge. I could literally put it in one camp or the other at will. I am talking everything exactly the same. It is not the only load but this load was the worst. You might say the aha moment. This is probably why my 158gr 357 mag pet load leaves my 6 inch barrel at just over 1575fps. Thats 880lbs of energy at the barrel. The cases fall out of the cylinder. My 30-06 I get consistent hits out past 2000 yards. I am basically an uneducated idiot that barley made it out of high school. And because of that I don't know what is impossible. I do practice safe habits. And when you dont know what is impossible everything becomes possible. Take my microgroove 357. Microgrooves are not supposed to be able to shoot lead. Well mine does how is 1.5 inch groups at 100yds all day long sound with a pip-sight? Today my 460 was getting 1 inch groups at 100 yards pushing 325 grain lyman bullets at just under 1800fps and 300gr Lee bullets at about 1850fps without the gas checks. Somebody hear will tell you that should not happen. But I can do it. Everybody will tell you that you need them at these pressures. You all do but I dont. I think outside the box and question everything.
What I am getting at is what I am learning from this cartridge goes in the face of what a lot of supposedly educated people will tell you. The answer is a variation of what I wrote to start this thread. I can get repeated results with several different loads. I plan on trying what I have learned with several other guns I have. First my 45-70 contender and 357 mag. And then go from there. So I can learn more. I would tell you what I am learning and how I am going about it.
But It seems even though I have violated none of the rules here the powers to be have started censuring my posts. I guess since I dont kneel before the s&w gods they need to attempt to put me in my place. I insulted nobody I did not bring up religion or politics, I just exposed the flaws that s&w has. And because of that it has become VERY clear to me I am not welcome. Its sad I am sure I could learn a lot of things here. And I could add a few my self. All my life I have thought outside the box that is why I now have a clue what is going on inside the 460 cartridge. What I am about to write is an example of my ability to think outside the box.
This is a true story condensed. This year On the morning of 1/4/2019 I was in serious need of rescue. Yes I got myself in a position that if I dont do things right my life expediency was literally 3 days. I went for a hike in the Nevada dessert. Nobody knew where I was and did not expect me to be anywhere till Easter. My phone battery died half hour later I broke my leg. After creating a splint out of 550 cord, ground pad and my AR lower. I crawled till 10:30pm that night. Then spent the remainder of the night under a $2 solar blanket that literally worked as advertised. It was a clear cold Nevada dessert night with no moon at best it was low teens. While suffering horribly shivering the night away under that solar blanket that believe me is one of the reasons I am still here. The light went off in my head. I could charge my phone using my game caller in my back pack. Not long after first light when 911 answered and An hour and a half after sunup when that rescue helicopter landed I was not prepared for the emotional wave that would over take me.
I question everything. Believe none of what I hear and half of what I see. Nothing is impossible when people like me are around.
Because I am not welcome here I will not be back. I wish you all happiness. So dont make any comments towards me since I wont be back to read them.
After I get reasonable amount of hits on my IPSC plate at 1 mile with this pistol. I will be moving my cold shot M.O.A.B riser to my 338 lapua and go after the 2 mile barrier. So far my farthest shot with my 338 is past 1.5 miles that is where my sight adjustment ran out. My 338 Popper plate is 12 inches wide and 18 inches tall.
Shoot straight and keep them in the 10 ring
Mike
P.S.
As much as I have a bad attitude towards Smith and Wesson. I believe in giving credit where credit id due. What I have learned about how easy it is to over pressure the 460. Today I learned just how stout the XVR is. If nothing else it is strong. And now that I have almost fixed all the problems with this pistol I am getting the accuracy I expected from a performance center gun.

 

[ruggyh]

But neither of you is thinking outside the box. You have to go back and read what I first wrote in this thread.

There is no outside the box with internal ballistics. The science is well studied and documented.

Any gun that is "blown up" as you described is result of over pressure- period. Obstructions blow up barrels (when pressure is sufficient).

Detonation theory as sported on the internet and in the minds of individuals are in denial of over loading their cartridge most likely double charge.

Do some real research on the subject- not antidotal internet gossip.

PO Ackley first postulated detonation theory as the result of a large rifle case loaded (supposedly with less than minimum powder charge) with an extremely slow powder and the rifle detonated. Well documented and discussed in the late 1950'.

He and his following tried to repeat that incident and it never could be reproduced. The powder manufacture also tried to reproduce the incident and were not able to, as well as several other ballistic labs.

Ockham's razor ahould be applied.

Yes, there are position sensitive powders that will cause some erratic ignition issues that will show as abnormal velocity deviations (spread), but once again well documented.
With case loads typically of 460 with H110 - typically 90 to 100% you are going to see any deviation.

If you really want to understand what is going on inside your case it can only be done with pressure test tools- not a chronograph.

Remember you came here asking for help and those responding are only trying to helpful.

be safe
Ruggy