460V - Removal of Single-Action Feature

[DrDoctor]

WR Moore,
Yes, I'm aware that the old adage of "in the event of failure with a revolver, just pull the trigger", is an overstatement. I was being facetious. However, you have to admit that a revolver's easier to deal with than an auto-loader – with a revolver, there's no safety to engage/disengage, no racking required, no potential of discharge with the magazine removed, no potential of there being no round in battery with the magazine inserted, it's quite easy to see if it's loaded . . . And, let's face it, an auto-loader's a higher maintenance piece of equipment. I'd rather put my trust in a revolver that's been sitting in a drawer for a protracted period of time than an auto-loader that's been sitting in that drawer for that same protracted period of time. (THAT comment will probably generate its share of heated contradictory relies . . .)
Hardluk1's comment about the 1911 being in single-action mode after the 1st shot's got me thinking . . . I'm still keeping the 460V, and I'm still going to limit the ammunition to .45Colt (gun weight helping to control recoil/muzzle flip) . . . but I'm going to re-evaluate my tho't about the single-action/double-action that I initiated this topic with.
Anyway, regards to you . . .

 

[RoyM52]

Just curious, why did you buy that 460? ..for what purpose? It's a very large game hunting gun. {requires hearing protection to use} Otherwise it could be a large gun for defense from large bear . For a range gun, single action would be the ticket. Or was this gun bequeathed to you? {BTW any altercation from stock is a probable litigation}{and , either a shoot is justifiable ,or, it isn't {animal or otherwise}}

 

[DrDoctor]

Prior to the purchase of the 460V revolver, my wife and I had already decided on revolvers. I then did research (which was one of the prime activities of being a doctor in my eventual field . . .). I visited with the state police, from senior personnel, to watch commanders, to the officers in the cars. I went to several gun stores in the state. I then did a review of literature, including, but not limited to, the following titles: Survival Operations, Handguns For Home Defense, In Praise Of The Home Defense Revolver, Big-bore Revolvers For Home Protection, Modern Combat And Survival, Home Invasion Defense, Home Invasion Guns And Ammunition, Big Guns For Defense Against Home Invasion, Weapons For Protection And Survival.
The "common denominators" running thru these interviews, and the articles, were – in no particular priority order: 1) revolvers are easier to use than auto-loaders. An auto-loader's best left to one experienced with it; 2) barrel length should be no shorter than 3" to maintain control upon usage, and no longer than 6" to prevent it from being grabbed and used to deflect it away from the assailant; 3) caliber should be no smaller than .38; and 4) if using a shotgun shell in a pistol designed for such, it should be .410, and shouldn't be used in distances greater than 10', and if using specially designed self-defense shot-shells, that distance can go up to 20'.
As for which revolver's preferred for protection against home invasion – the answer to that's as varied as people with opinions. There's no right, or wrong, answer with regard to size, and/or weight. The reason I selected the large gun's because my being above-average in size – a larger gun feels comfortable in my hand.
Because big-bore revolvers are large-framed revolvers, they're built stronger, and heavier, than medium-, and/or small-framed revolvers, and as such, firing less-powerful ammunition in a large gun results in much less felt recoil due to the larger gun's weight in relation to the power of the ammunition used. Also, firing less-powerful ammunition in a large gun results in much less muzzle flip, muzzle flash, and noise, also due to the larger gun's weight in relation to the power of the ammunition used, which also allows for quicker successive shots. Considering the heft of the 460V revolver, one should be able to fire .45 Colt ammunition in semi-rapid, double-action succession with fairly good accuracy, due to the low recoil of the heavier gun. Not to be overlooked is the intimidation factor of an intruder looking at a large gun (460V revolver) vs a small one (.22 caliber revolver).
Further, many large-framed revolvers provide the benefits of chambering different loads in the same cylinder. Firing .38 Special, .44 Special, or .45 Colt, ammunition from a large-frame .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, or .460 Magnum, revolver, respectively, will produce far less recoil than firing the same rounds from standard .38, .44, or .45, caliber revolvers. So, by using a big revolver, it's possible to have the option of a powerful round chambered 1st, with all subsequent rounds in the cylinder loaded with the more controllable .38 Special, .44 Special, or .45 Colt, ammunition.
Thx . . .

 

[Ziggy2525]

Doc,

You're an analytical guy, but I think you're way over thinking this. You're talking about making mods without having any time shooting your revolver. You might want to see if you can find a "defensive revolver" course where you shoot at least a couple hundred rounds through your 460 before you make any mods. If you can't find a defensive revolver course, you can probably find private instruction to accomplish similar.

After you get a couple hundred rounds through the revolver, you may decide any mods you need are totally different. You also might decide a true DAO semi might be a better choice (or not).

[Just a side suggestion, in your posts, if you put an extra "return" when you start a new paragraph, it creates a little extra white space and would make your posts much easier to read]

 

[Wise_A]

Doc--Suffice to say, I disagree with virtually every point. I'm not going to argue with you, because I really don't think you're going to listen to me anyway. Although I'd point out that I took a look at some of the resources you looked at, and they're questionable at best. And the last place I'd go for useful firearms information is gun shops (their goal is to sell you a gun, and by golly, they sold you the biggest, most expensive one) and random police officers.

I will point out the following:

All this was spurred on by two incidents you experienced.

You have a shotgun.

In both instances, you would have had to go and retrieve your shotgun, because you did not have it on you.

You don't carry your shotgun around with you, because it is large and heavy.

You studied the situation, and decided on a S&W 460 in (I'm guessing) about a 5" barrel--a gun which weighs, according to S&W, about 3.75 pounds, and is a little over 11" long.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you're probably planning on leaving it in a drawer somewhere.

You haven't improved your situation in the slightest, because you are planning on dealing with a sudden, unexpected threat, by going to retrieve a firearm from storage. And if none of the books and magazines you read, or people you talked to, pointed this out, then they don't have the foggiest notion of what they're talking about.

A pocket .380 you actually have on you is going beat the hell out of "Excuse me, sir, while I go get something to shoot you with."

 

[WR Moore]

Doc,

You do have some points on the simplicity of a revolver. I'm aware of a ~70 year old obsolete revolver loaded with ~25 year old ammunition that handily took care of a situation. However, that's not recommended practice.

That said, while you have reviewed literature, you didn't review relevant literature. This not being your field, understandable. As an example, I'm sure you've noticed some ......ah, less than rigorous "studies" published in what are supposed to scientific journals that you may be more familiar with.

Salient points:
Given modern expanding bullet designs by major manufacturers, there is no significant difference in wound cavity between the various common defense/duty calibers.

The most important factor in incapacitation is shot placement. Therefore, firearm/caliber choice should place an emphasis on your ability to control the firearm in a realistic manner. This is especially true given consideration to the paragraph above.

While there is some validity to your comparison of the life span of large vs medium frame revolvers, you're most unlikely to fire enough ammunition in your lifetime for that to be an issue. That being the case, a slightly smaller, handier and easier to use firearm would seem to be a more prudent choice. There are revolvers available in various calibers/weights (some have full barrel underlugs to place additional weight in the best place)/frame sizes that might better suit your purpose. If there's a facility around where you can rent firearms for comparison, you can try before you buy. I expect you can find something suitable that delivers the same recoil effect as your cannon.

Best of luck.

 

[kthom]

I carried a revolver many years in a duty capacity. I decided very early on to just fire in double action mode. I did not have the single action function removed. I have a few revolvers that are double action only from the factory, and these also have the hammer spur removed. These are primarily J Frames that are sometimes carried in a place where the hammer spur could get caught in pocket material and foul the draw. But for me, double action only is the way for me to go. It took a bit of practice to become as competent as I wanted to be, but trust me it can be done.

The very best double action trigger pull is one that is consistently smooth throughout the complete trigger movement. That can be accomplished by smoothing the action without changing any of the geometry involved, particularly the slide that holds the trigger return spring. I do not mess with any of the springs. I want the gun to fire every time. With this type of trigger action that has no change in effort throughout the trigger pull, it only takes some practice to get used to whatever the trigger pull happens to measure. The trigger can be pulled without anything to disturb the sight picture and that's the goal for a good trigger.

These days, my favorite EDC is a Model 640-1 that is a Centennial style which is factory DAO. Putting it into action is the easiest and simplest method available in my experience. And I have no qualms about sufficient accuracy to get the job done if needed. I have larger framed revolvers that I carry while hunting or hiking, etc and there could be instances where using the single action mode would be appropriate. But unless the distance was long and I have a good rest, it's doubtful even then that I would not fire DAO. Any decent gunsmith that has experience with these revolvers should be able to give you the type of trigger action and pull that i've tried to describe. For the revolver you mention here and others like it, I think what I've described is exactly what you need. Spend the rest of your money on ammo and time for practice!

 

[reddog81]

Hardluk1's comment about the 1911 being in single-action mode after the 1st shot's got me thinking . . . I'm still keeping the 460V, and I'm still going to limit the ammunition to .45Colt (gun weight helping to control recoil/muzzle flip) . . . but I'm going to re-evaluate my tho't about the single-action/double-action that I initiated this topic with.
Anyway, regards to you . . .

Good idea. Get some boxes of ammo down range and then re-evaluate your conceptions.

It sounds like you've done volumes of research which has resulted in some ideas that are questionable at best. Remember that gun writers aren't the same as medical journals and are often times just opinions. These writers have to keep coming up with new ideas in order to sell their wares. Often times these recommendations vacillate back and forth from year to year.

FWIW, Every shot with a 1911 is single action.

 

[The_Truth]

Not to sound like a jerk, but if you're worried about "liability issues" I'd be more concerned about the fact that a 460V is more big and scary looking than its smaller framed counterpart, and I'd be less concerned with DA/SA. Get an N frame 44mag or 44spl, load it with 44spl, and be done. Go with a DAO L frame 44 if you must.

To be frank, that logic is pretty silly IMO, especially for home defense. I could maybe understand for "social work," but even then, a good shoot is a good shoot all other things being equal.

 

[delcrossv]

I have a 460V, a 500mag and a slew of others. So, which is loaded and ready to go at home?
A Sig P232 (380) with a Crimson Trace.

YMMV

 

[hardluk1]

DrDoctor At this point the only one around here that has issues with pistols is you . What you decide to do in the future only matters to you and using one odd past military handgun problem should not turn you off on modern pistols .

Now if your going into big bear country you have a fine revolver for the job so get use to it with 460loads other wise you have a world of testing and learning with other designs to catch up on . Just avoid the cheaper big ammo company low end fodder for practice until you learn the difference . If you happed to find a nice looking s&w all metal pistol or a sig classic da.sa dao or CZ or Berretta da/sa try out the trigger pull and if you have a chance to get some trigger time on a range with a 1911 get it too .

With a pistol you should practice with a snap cap or dummy load so you learn to do a Rap Tap Bang Drill smoothly and quickly with out thinking about it , until it becomes natural just like YOU should be able to do a fast smooth reload with a revolver . You do practice right ?

My first pistol was a colt huntsman with a 2lb trigger and thumb safety and learned safety was above all with that at 6 years of age thanks to Dad and my first centerfire pistols was a beater 1911 when I turned 21 I learned to sweep a thumb safety until it became second nature !! I also carry SA pistols for years . Well some 37 years later my Wife tells me after running some draw and fire drills with a new to me P320c about 4.5 years ago that she watched me sweep for a safety each time I draw the handgun and I still do it , NO safety on it !! Guess you could say old habits can be hard to brake s I still shoot and carry two pistol with thumb safety's also .

Do you think the cartridges you have in the cylinder are enought if needed ? Like you may not need a quick reload . What if there are two bad guys or what if one is on drugs or very determined like in the ture story ( Why I Carry 145 Rounds ) .. Read it , and think about a revolver as a primary carry . maybe a back up like with a LCR or airweight . You need to be prepared to reload a revolver , quickly .

Some pistols also have the ability of a second strike on the primer so if a primer does not fire with the first pull of the trigger you can simple pull the trigger again as your reaching for a fresh mag to swap out if needed . Not likely with good ammo .

Taurus G2 is one of those low cost striker fired you can buy to get into it at a low cost that offers that second strike feature and any DA /SA or DA/dao hammer fired pistol can have the trigger pulled again . Bersa has some very good da/sa lower cost models to start with too . Don't stop learning and don't assume you have all your bases cover with that over size revolver .

 

[swsig]

You've gotten some good advice above. I'll try to keep mine as non-redundant as possible. My first point is that your concern about the liability of using a single action trigger seems misdirected. A much greater concern is the liability stemming from firing a high-power round that misses the target, leaves the confines of your house, and strikes some innocent person outside or in a neighboring house. The more powerful the round, the more likely this is going to happen with a gun you have never shot. All your hypothetical analyses will avail you nothing if you can't hit what you're aiming at. So get to a range and shoot the heck out of your gun with various rounds until you're satisfied with your proficiency. And one of your options should be to consider a completely different gun if it turns out you can't shoot the 460V very well. Now even if you live out in the sticks so there is no chance of hitting anyone outside of your house, my point about hitting what you aim at still stands. My two primary home defense guns (both .45 acp, one carry, one drawer) have a combined 10,000 rounds between them, and I am confident I can hit any intruder at any distance inside my house.

My second point concerns caliber choice. I've posted this before in another thread, so I'll be brief here. A friend who was a homicide detective in a major city's PD had the job of interviewing officers who had shot bad guys in the line of duty. He asked the officers to describe the reactions of the BGs when they were hit. Three particular rounds consistently caused the BGs to lurch/stagger backwards: .45acp, .357 Mag, and .357 SIG. (9mms had relatively little impact.) While I'm sure any round you would fire from your 460V would have a strong impact, my point is that you don't have to use such heavy rounds to do the job. This leaves many options open to you for alternative guns should you decide the 460V is not for you after shooting it a bunch.

Good Luck and Good Shooting!

 

[DrDoctor]

Ziggy2525,
GREAT recommendation about the paragraphs!!! I typically indent each paragraphs, but noticed that the indentations weren't being "taken". Hmmmm????

WR Moore,
You're entirely correct about the literature – it's nothing like what I'm accustomed to. The best articles I encountered in this recent exercise were what I'd refer to as "quasi-empirical" at best. That's not a knock to any author, it's just a comment that their articles don't have to be as scientific as medical articles written by doc's for doc's.

Further, firearms is a much more recent endeavor for me than the healthcare arena. I've spent 32+ years in healthcare. I possess an MD, and a PhD (hence – DrDoctor . . .) plus an MHSa, and FACP. But, education and intelligence are NOT synonymous (but I like to think I'm both . . . I hope I am . . .), and there's no positive statistical correlation between the 2 criteria of measurement. I've met educated idiots, and intelligent high-school dropouts. I'm obviously NOT an expert on firearms, nor do I claim to be, nor do I aspire to be – I'm intelligent enough to acknowledge that I'm approaching the point knowing enough to be dangerous. That's why I ask questions – to garner information in a concise, pragmatic, and expedient, manner. I expect some of my inquiries to raise some eyebrows from the more learned, and/or experienced individuals. And, given that – I always keep in mind what I learned in my 3 post-grad programs – "the only stupid question is the one not asked, because there are 99 other people in here that have the same question, but don't possess the courage to vocalize it".

Reddog81,
Valid points – all. I've shot a 460V at one of the gun shops I frequent, but it wasn't mine. The owner of the gun let me shoot it (super nice of him), and he had me shoot 3-4 cylinders worth, but they were .45 Colt (sorry, but that's all I know about the ammunition). It wasn't brutal at all – in fact – quite controllable. That experience, shooting the gun, and discussing it at length with him, was the clincher for my choice to buy it,

My gratitude and appreciation to you guys for seeing this fact . . . Regards . . .

 

[hardluk1]

Your using a one time event in the navy when you were some young no nothing kid as a reason to avoid pistols today ?? For a smart guy you are lacking some basic common sense when it comes to firearms .

You get some range time with some more practical and dependable handguns , say a glock 19 or a m&p 2.0 4" or 4.25 9mm maybe even a 3" 357mag revolver that you can use 38sp in . That 460 even with 45colt loads is still not a sure fire one shot man stopper and not the best choice . Might be a 3" or 4" 8 shot 357mag or 9mm would be a far better choice for a handgun as a house gun until you become more experienced .

Maybe buy a 20ga or 12ga pump shotgun for around the house . A youth size 20ga like a Mossberg super bantam handles well is hardly heavier than that 460 you have now and way more effective around the home .

There plenty of guys like me that have many years of concealed carry and practice defensive drills regularly with semi auto handguns that simple can't remember when a we had a failure to function issue with a premium centerfire cartridge . I carried daily for 32 years fire an average of 3000 rounds a years for defensive practice and can't remember a single cartridge that did not fire or a handgun that did not function as deigned .

Your smart so learn .

 

[reddog81]

Ziggy2525,
Reddog81,
Valid points – all. I've shot a 460V at one of the gun shops I frequent, but it wasn't mine. The owner of the gun let me shoot it (super nice of him), and he had me shoot 3-4 cylinders worth, but they were .45 Colt (sorry, but that's all I know about the ammunition). It wasn't brutal at all – in fact – quite controllable. That experience, shooting the gun, and discussing it at length with him, was the clincher for my choice to buy it,

My gratitude and appreciation to you guys for seeing this fact . . . Regards . . .

The .460 is a quality guns and .45 Colt is certainly sufficient for self defense. I've shot quite a few .45 Colt reloads through mine and the large gun does tame the even the hottest loads. I honestly think you'll appreciate shooting the gun in single action and there's a good chance you'll have better accuracy that way also. Deleting the single action preemptively would be a mistake.

 

[DrDoctor]

Reddog81,
Yep, when you're right, you're right. I've tho't a lot about this, and have decided to not rush into this. Instead, I'm going to wait, and after shooting .45 Colt ammunition – ammunition that I know something about, other than "it's .45 Colt ammunition", in my own gun, then I can make an informed decision. You know, for a guy who's got more letters behind my name than in my name, I need to remember to apply the principles that I learned in my grad-school programs, and refined in my vocation, to this exercise. So, after I've done that – what will my decision be??? I'm not there, yet, so I'm not sure just what it'll be . . . Ahhhh . . . don't you just love a mystery???

 

[Ziggy2525]

...
I've tho't a lot about this, and have decided to not rush into this. Instead, I'm going to wait, and after shooting .45 Colt ammunition – ammunition that I know something about, other than "it's .45 Colt ammunition", in my own gun, then I can make an informed decision.
...

Being a sort of analytical guy myself, I'd take a stepwise approach to making any changes. This is how I'd go about it. Others will have a different ideas.

Step 1. Start getting really familiar with your revolver by getting some snap caps and dry firing it at home at least 10 trigger presses every night. Before you dry fire, triple check to make sure the revolver is unloaded. Don't have any ammo near where you are dry firing. If it's possible, dry fire in the basement against a dirt backed block wall just in case, against all odds, you do shoot a round off. Look up a guy on the internet named Claude Werner. He has some good videos and written instructions for dry fire revolver practice.

Step 2. Get to the range and put a few boxes of ammo through the revolver. You can't really familiarize yourself with the revolver without putting real rounds through it.

Step 3. Check the sights. There's a high probability if you need to use your revolver for self defense, it will be in dim light without your glasses (think getting woken up in the middle of the night). You can test this at home. Triple check the revolver is empty just like for dry fire. Have the lights be like they will be in your house if you were woken up. Using your flashlight to illuminate your target (you have a bedside flashlight, right), without your glasses, can you see the sights clearly enough to align them on a target across the room (don't point at a live person when testing this). If you can't see your sights well enough to align them, you should get different sights.

Step 4. Check the grips. It's possible (some people say highly likely) your hands will be wet from either sweat (fear) or blood (injury). At the range, use one of those little water spritzers to get your hands wet, then with wet hands try a few shots. Can you maintain your grip on the revolver when you fire it with wet hands? If not, look at some different grips.

Step 5. Now that you've got the sights and grips sorted out, check the double action trigger. Most ranges have marking targets. The ones I'm thinking about have either 9 or 15 half-dollar size targets arranged in 3x3 or 3x5 matrix. Set it out at 3 yards. Take your time on each shot. Can you reliably hit each target in double action mode. If the trigger is too heavy, you'll be pulling your shots and not hitting the half dollar sized target you're aiming at. If you are pulling your shots, you need to decide if it's training or do you need a reduced trigger spring weight.

Step 6. Now that you've got the pistol squared away, now practice your 5x5x5 from low ready. Claude Werner has some good stuff on this also.

 

[Walkingwolf]

As far as self defense, and single action it is very very very simple. DON'T cock a gun you are not justified to use deadly force. As well don't even draw a gun you do not intend to use.

Civilian deadly force rules in most states are somewhat different than LE rules. It is acceptable to draw as a police officer to be prepared in case of a deadly force incident. As a civilian this will land the person in jail. Some police departments due to not training the officers as they should have bought DAO revolvers. This limited the officers when absolute precision shots are needed, sometimes resulting in the wrong person shot.

Until you are better trained leave the gun as is, and get better trained with a weapon that is suited more to your abilities for self defense.

 

[Wise_A]

Reddog81,
Yep, when you're right, you're right. I've tho't a lot about this, and have decided to not rush into this. Instead, I'm going to wait, and after shooting .45 Colt ammunition – ammunition that I know something about, other than "it's .45 Colt ammunition"

That's the problem with .45 Colt--expense and selection.

Hornady sells its Critical Defense line (FTX bullets), but other than admiring its smart branding I can't say a ton about it.

Sig Sauer offers a 230-grain load in its Elite Performance Whatever boxes. Nobody complains much about Sig's ammo, but they sure send out enough of it free.

Underwood and Buffalo Bore are both excellent boutique manufacturers.

That's about it. All of the above are going to cost you ~$1.10-$1.65 a round before shipping. I'd carry any of them, if you made me carry a .45 Colt. The cheapest plinking ammunition available is about $0.50/round.

That's $25/box, compared to $13/box for .38 Spl or .45 ACP, or $9/box for 9mm. In other words, 2-3 times less practice. And yeah, I think a guy that practices twice as much with a .38 is a lot better-prepared than a dude with a .45.

Reloading would not be the worst thing in the world to learn.

 

[Biggfoot44]

I am an unabashed Revolver Guy . And I (still) feel revolvers are a viable option for Defense .

That said , I don't particularly make a talking point about the reliability, as I have plenty of revolver issues over the years . If an autoloader meets meets my mouthful of criteria - Modern design, of good quality, broken in , shooting good quality ammo, that has proven reliable in that gun , and is kept reasonably clean, and copiously lubricated , they are as reliable as Revolvers . A Revolver IS more aminable to * neglect * , and to using substandard ammo that still goes Bang , but those are different discussions .

I virtually always shoot DA , but only one sort of eliminated SA , getting an additional hammer assy for Speed Six that was both DA and Spurless . ( Like the DAO well enough, but prefered a conventional hammer spur .)

And I hear you about full size guns vs tiny guns . I even routinely carry K frames, and " Commander sized " autos .

I hear you about liking a moderate vel Big Bore . It's not the only sucuessful approach , but certainly is * A * viable approach . I'm know to occasionally carry a 3.5in .45Colt . 250gr Gold Dots are a good round , and the recoil impulse and poi will be reasonably close to standard aka NOT Cowboy , 250gr RNL for practice and training .

My Partial Validation of the OP's thoughts out of the way, there's some issues here :

You need to shoot it , a lot .
You need to develope an adaquate level of shooting proficiency , both basic handling and marksmanship , and defensive oriented . Sometimes the same Instructor / experienced mentor can do both , sometimes they will be sequential endevors .

I'm a Big Guy , and outspoken fan of full size- ish pistols . Even to me, an X frame is freaking huge . Any potential intimidation value to a full size pistol , would be sufficiently present with say a 4in K frame or 4.25in large frame auto .

You can safely assume a Prosecutor or Plaintiff's attourney would pay waaaaaaaaay more attention to your Caliber , than the presence of an SA notch . Being gun enthusiasts here , * WE * understand you're actually loaded with "only" .45 Colt , but the general public will fixate upon " .460 MAGNUM , capable of shooting Elephants " .

***************

I won't try to dissuade you from a big bore Revolver . But get 500 or a 1,000rds practical DA shooting , including drawing and/ or rapid presentations under your belt with your .460 under your belt , and I would suspect a future conversation will be about 4in N frames or Redhawks shooting .45Colt or .44Spl .