500 S&W Hang Fire

[CH4]

Took my 4" 500 to he range with my first reloads for this cartridge:

New Starline Brass - Flash holes are uniform.
Berry's 350 gr plated bullets
CCI Large Rifle primers
Lil Gun 34 gr

I loaded and fired a single round. There was about a 1-2 second delay before the powder ignited, sending the bullet down range.

Again, I loaded and fired a single round. This time nothing, or so I thought. Keeping the gun pointed down range, I waited several minutes before trying to open the cylinder. However, it wouldn't open.

Upon further inspection I determined the bullet was lodged in the forcing cone and cylinder. After pushing the bullet clear of the barrel/cylinder gap I was able to open the cylinder, where I found much of the unburned powder charge, with the remainder of the charge still in the case.

The powder was fresh, having purchased it a few days before. 34 gr filled the case about 50%.

I've been reloading for years and never had a single round not fire.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Lou

 

[ruggyh]

Starline brass utilizes large rifle primers.
(yes the early brass was large pistol- but OP stated new)

Don't see how a small primer would even stay in the pocket.

You are also loading below listed minimum in my opinion.

Be safe
Ruggy

 

[CH4]

Ooops, I did use large rifle primers.
My info showed 35 gr to start, but wanted a little milder load so I went with 34. Didn't think 1 grain less would cause ignition issues.


Thanks...

 

[ruggyh]

How did you dispense powder?

What was your OAL?

Minimum start load should been 35 grains, even this doesn't generate enough pressure to properly burn this powder in my experience.

Ball powders are not good candidates for reduced loads in general.

Be safe
Ruggy

 

[CH4]

How did you dispense powder?

Minimum start load should been 35 grains, even this doesn't generate enough pressure to properly burn this powder in my experience.

Ball powders are not good candidates for reduced loads in general.

Be safe
Ruggy

I loaded one cartridge at a time; weighing each charge with an RCBS 505, dumping it into the case before seating the bullet.

I seated/crimped the bullet at the cannelure. OAL 2.074

What powder would you recommend for a mild, mid range plinking load? Ive thought about Trail Boss...

 

[ruggyh]

There is no downside to using Trail Boss or Tin Star
for reduced loads.

For mid level loads 4227 is good.

2400 also works very well or wide range of loading and bullet weights.


be safe
Ruggy

 

[CH4]

Thank you! I appreciate your time and help.

Lou

 

[TANKLEGACY]

I used IMR 4227, never had a firing issue.
When i was building my loads, i went lowwww...one didnt even have the power to leave the barrel, felt like a 380...lol
But it still fired fine.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Berry's & 500 S&W

Took my 4" 500 to he range with my first reloads for this cartridge:

New Starline Brass - primer holes open
Berry's 350 gr plated bullets
Winchester Large Rifle primers
Lil Gun 34 gr

I've been reloading for years and never had a single round not fire. Any ideas?

Doc,

I've loaded this same combination (excecpt I use CCI 200 LRPs) & even some loads with 31.0grs/Lil'Gun, without issue. The Berry's bullets are the problem, rather the way you loaded them, I believe.

Berry's 350gr P-RNFPs were some of the first I tried with "reduced" loads. I quickly came to the conclusion that Berry's puts the cannelure (for what good it is) too low giving you only ~.255" of seating depth. Not enough depth especially with a (slippery) plated bullet.

I seat all my loads using Berry's 350gr at .375" seating depth with a COAL of 1.970" and use a taper crimp. This depth places the ogive (*) just below the crimp line & the taper crimp curves over it which eliminates jump crimp in my 500ES.

I've played with Lil'Gun in several cartidges & never had any ignition issues whatsoever, unlike what H110/W296 will do if downloaded.

You didn't get enough bullet-case tension with that seating depth, plus plated bullets are too slick, to get the powder burning properly before it popped out of the case into the long throat & quit burning causing the squib.

Here's a thread I started with some reduced range loads that still give a kick but won't run off the shooters (gets their attention though) in the next lane.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/487269-range-fodder-500-s-w-acme-hsm-rainier-bullets.html
.

What did you mean by: primer holes open ??
.

(*) Each box of Berry's 350gr P-RNFPs I've bought were undersized, just .4986" at the ogive & .5003" at the base, which doesn't help with seating & crimp tension either. Have you looked at your's closely? Because of this my Lee collet crimp die doesn't even work on them.

.

 

[CH4]

Thanks for the great info, it's very enlightening. What about using other powders like 4227 and crimping at the cannelure?

Sorry， I meant flash holes. They were uniform.

I used RCBS carbide dies with roll crimp. Crimp looked tight.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

As I said, all my Berry's load are now seated to the ogive, not the cannelure. In my thread you'll see that even the plated HSM & Rainier were seated to the ogive.

I4227 was the powder I first loaded with these that I noticed the inconsistent ignition issue & decided to seat them to a more "typical for weight" depth.

I don't roll crimp the plated bullets since the taper crimp is over the ogive. Don't want to risk damaging the plating anyway. Only roll crimp on jacketed or cast lead.

My initial loads were judiciously roll crimped at the cannelure & with moderate speed powders it still jumped crimp, thus the deeper seating & taper crimp over the ogive.

.

 

[CH4]

As I said, all my Berry's load are now seated to the ogive, not the cannelure. In my thread you'll see that even the plated HSM & Rainier were seated to the ogive.

I4227 was the powder I first loaded with these that I noticed the inconsistent ignition issue & decided to seat them to a more "typical for weight" depth.

I don't roll crimp the plated bullets since the taper crimp is over the ogive. Don't want to risk damaging the plating anyway. Only roll crimp on jacketed or cast lead.

My initial loads were judiciously roll crimped at the cannelure & with moderate speed powders it still jumped crimp, thus the deeper seating & taper crimp over the ogive.

.

10-4

Thank you

 

[ruggyh]

Good example of why handloaders should understand case volume and it implications.

In a 500 S&W the seating difference between 2.07 and 1.97 is 8%. If you convert the difference from the 31 grains 35 grains guess what it equates to just under 8% case volume.

The 34 grain load at an OAL fo 2.07 only develops about 30kpsi
Lil'gun likes min. of 40kpsi to burn consistently.

The 31 grain load at an OAL to 1.97 develops about 40 kpsi so I would expect this load to operate ok.

Other calibers will be effected to the some degree, but because of the cross sectional area of the 500 it becomes very pronounced, by this I mean the amount of powder difference (large) in a small change of bullet depth.(This is another reason not to use fast powders in the 500 - you can see a 2 grain difference with most ball powders).

Conversely the smaller the cross sectional area the faster pressure will rise with increase of seating depth.


and on a different note

When using 4227 use regular primers, magnum primers do not perform will with this powder in either the 460 or 500 in my testing.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

 

[fredj338]

Slow powders like linguine never want to be loaded below minimum. If you want lighter loads, switch to a medium burner like unique, power pistol or be86.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Along this line, I wish reloading guide recipes listed the bullet's actual seating depth (or the bullet's overall length, BOAL", in addition to the finished COAL") so you could take that into consideration when using a bullet of the same weight/construction but with a different seating depth.

These are measurements I decided some time ago I wanted to included in my reloading log book with each new component loaded.

.

 

[CH4]

Thanks for all the 411. I've went back and tightened the crimp on the remaining 20 rounds to see how they work. After that, I'll try a couple different powders (4227, Unique Trail Boss, etc.) and up the charge of Lil' Gun for new loads. I'll also experiment with roll and taper crimps. For the price Berry's are a good deal. Hopefully, I can find an inexpensive and reliable plinking round.

 

[cmj8591]

I,ve had great luck with 4227 and cast bullets in the 500. I always use magnum large rifle primers and they have worked out very well. My accuracy load is 43 grains 4227 with a hard cast 320 grain swc. I use a heavy roll crimp with everything. Like some of the other posters have said, your lil gun problem has to do with loading density. Fine, slow powders like lil gun, 296, h110, should be loaded as close to maximum as possible so as to fill the case with as much as possible. The hang fire phenomenon used to only happen with large capacity rifle cartridges because most of the available pistol rounds and powders didn't lend themselves to low loading densities. Now that we have ventured into these huge capacity pistol cases, we are starting to see it more frequently in the hand gun world. As a general rule, cases loaded to their maximum density tend to be the most reliable and accurate.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Like some of the other posters have said, your lil gun problem has to do with loading density.

The OP was using 34gr/Lil'Gun with a 350gr bullet. Hornady #8 lists the starting load for their 350gr XTP (which seats .390" deep) & Lil'Gun with 31.7grs @1400fps and, 34.0grs is 1500fps. I'm sure if they thought that load density was bad they wouldn't publish it with their name on it.

34grs/Lil'Gun & a seating depth of .375" uses ~83.8% of the empty case's volume.

Again, the OPs problem was insufficient bullet-case tension & crimp to provide adequate ignition. Then coupled with the shallow seating depth, that increased the available case volume (by ~9.2%), only added to the issue.

Long throats, oversized throats or undersize bullets only further compound the chance of a squib without proper ignition before the bullet leaves the case.

The load shot fine for me once those issues were addressed.

.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just a note on the crimp, large magnum rounds require a firm crimp especially with ball powders. Plated bullets are not a good choice for applying a firm crimp. FMJ or Cast bullets are better choices IMO.

If you are looking for a lighter load I suggest using a medium speed powder like Longshot and a coated lead bullet. Missouri Bullets sells a very good coated bullet for the 500 Magnum.
Missouri Bullet Company

As a new reloader you shouldn't change the load data by loading less than the minimum. It's called that for a reason.

 

[Wise_A]

Slow powders like linguine never want to be loaded below minimum.

I will admit--my immature sense of humor found this quite funny.