60-10 Trigger Job

[Sal1950]

First I want to thank and give credit to Jerry Miculek and the guys at Clark Custom for their "S&W Trigger Job" DVD. I've been tuning Ruger wheelguns, 1911s, and various other semi-autos for 25+ years but it's great to have a pro sit down and point out all the important friction points, etc; before starting a project on a unknown platform.

I recently picked up a LNIB 60-10. Manufactured in 2008, nice J frame that for some reason doesn't have the dreaded lock on it. KOOL.

OTB DA pull was off my scale heavy, and the SA broke cleanly at about 3 1/4# I did a full action stone-polish job on it and installed a Wilson 8# hammer spring and 13# trigger rebound spring. SA break dropped to an almost too light 2 - 2 1/4#s and the DA pull is still off the my RCBS gauge scale, at least 10#s I'd guess.
Next step will be to get a couple more hammer springs in and start playing with them to try and get the DA pull down at least to around 9#s or so and still have reliable ignition with my Federal primed handloads. Will probably have to raise the RBS rate at that point as the SA pull will most likely get too light.
We'll see, update to come when time allows.
Comments and suggestions are welcome.
Sal

 

[HMB1004]

Sal, Try polishing the rebound slide and putting in a lighter spring. If you have an old rebound spring you can cut a ring or two off and use that. That should get the DA well below 10#. HMB

 

[Sal1950]

OTB DA pull was off my scale heavy, and the SA broke cleanly at about 3 1/4# I did a full action stone-polish job on it and installed a Wilson 8# hammer spring and 13# trigger rebound spring. SA break dropped to an almost too light 2 - 2 1/4#s and the DA pull is still off the my RCBS gauge scale, at least 10#s I'd guess.

Sal, Try polishing the rebound slide and putting in a lighter spring. If you have an old rebound spring you can cut a ring or two off and use that. That should get the DA well below 10#. HMB

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HMB1004,
Thanks for trying to help! But may I suggest next time you actually read the post your replying to.
Thanks Again,
Sal

 

[tomcatt51]

SA break dropped to an almost too light 2 - 2 1/4#s and the DA pull is still off the my RCBS gauge scale, at least 10#s I'd guess.
Next step will be to get a couple more hammer springs in and start playing with them to try and get the DA pull down at least to around 9#s or so and still have reliable ignition with my Federal primed handloads.

I think you're going to have a problem keeping a 2+ lb SA pull and having a light DA pull. I'd bob the hammer, cut it to follow the frame contour (to lighten it more) and trim off the SA hammer sear surface.

My no lock 342 has a 7 1/4 lb DA pull and will fire hand seated CCI primers so there's definitely a safety margin using Federal primers.

I use Wolff springs. A 13 lb rebound spring that I think is clipped to 13 coils. That's ~4+ coils clipped off. The end of the wire is zero when you count coils. It also has a Wolff 8 lb mainspring with (I think) 1 1/2 coils clipped off. The hammer is cut down as much as I could. No lock Centenial hammers (being hidden) can be cut a bunch.

You may not be able to clip the mainspring that much without bobbing/lightening the hammer. Slightly reworking the rebound slide and hammer "ramps" that move the hammer back at the end of the trigger return (so the hammer moves less abruptly) lets you keep a good trigger return with lighter rebound springs but if you want a 2+ lb SA you can't go too light on rebound springs anyway.

Clip a mainspring 1/2 coil at a time until you get mis-fires then use a spring that's clipped less. Then you can play with rebound springs. How heavy a rebound spring you need is related to how much mainspring you have so messing with the rebound spring first is pointless. How much mainspring you'll need is determined by hammer weight (less is better) and primer choice. Use an Apex competition firing pin kit. It includes a lighter firing pin spring.

Have fun. J frames can have nice DA pulls. I set up a bobbed hammer 36 for a friend for PPC "BUG" matches. Hand seated Federal primers, just under 6 lb DA pull. It got passed around and everyone that tried it couldn't help but grin.

 

[HMB1004]

Sal, I read your post. You want to lighten the DA weight of pull. It ain't going to happen unless you work on the rebound slide spring. HMB

 

[Hapworth]

Sal, I read your post. You want to lighten the DA weight of pull. It ain't going to happen unless you work on the rebound slide spring. HMB

Your advice is correct, but I think Sal's point was that in his original post (also quoted in his reply to you) he states having already done that.

Sal: the Mikulec DVD is an excellent primer, but short of definitive. For instance, when polishing the rebound slide, rolling up a small strip of very fine sandpaper (1200 - 2000 grit), and using it to polish the inside of the slide where the rebound spring is housed, as well as a light polishing of the rebound spring itself, can further improve action smoothness.

Ditto a gentle polish of the hammer and trigger studs, and the holes in the hammer and trigger that rotate on those studs. Again, very fine sandpaper -- less is truly more when polishing the internals of a revolver.

And the DVD doesn't begin to address the cylinder, crane and yoke. I fully strip those and with a combination of sandpaper and fine ceramic stones polish contact points.

Basically, I like to take the revolver completely apart and put really, really gentle stones or paper to virtually every contact point in the system, no matter its relevance; obviously this excludes certain no-go areas like the single action sear. The goal is always to gently and lightly smooth, never to remove or change critical dimensions or angles.

When I think I've almost done enough, I'm done.

There's also a tremendous amount of taking out the parts, working them, putting them back in, and testing the trigger -- over and over looking for any common or idiosyncratic snags and massaging them.

On one revolver I worked, I kept encountering a brief bit of grit on the trigger return that didn't make sense and didn't disappear after smoothing all the usual suspects. Turns out the trigger lever was unevenly finished and, because of its engagement angle with the rebound slide, slightly rubbing the trigger during engagement.

Took a while to determine this was the issue, but once found was easy to correct with, again, very little gentle smoothing of contact points.

All told, this approach takes time, patience and attention, but truly pays off. When done properly, I don't need to change out springs or snip coils, which I find to be a bit of a rabbit hole in general, and unnecessarily risky on a defensive gun unless you plan to build your own ammo to that specific gun; I prefer the security of trusting I can throw in any ammo at hand and the gun will work.

 

[Sal1950]

tomcatt51,
Thanks for your input on the spring mods, gives me some good approx. starting points. I now know that is the direction I will have to take if I want to get close to the DA-SA balance I'm looking for.
I have a C&S extended firing pin waiting in the wings to call on if needed.
Now just waiting on the extra springs I have ordered to get here and the time to do the work and test.
Will report back when there's new news.
Thanks Again,
Sal

 

[Sal1950]

Hapworth,
WOW I see your a major detail freak like myself.
Thanks for the pointers on the extra areas for attention! A couple of which have already been done such as smoothing the inside of the rebound spring channel and polishing the spring itself, details that I've been doing on my Ruger revolver tuning for years.

Yep, getting them just right takes a lot of time. Like you say I may have a weapon I'm very familiar with, and still have to take it apart and back together any number of times, and even a couple trips to the range, chasing the last few glitches till I'm happy with it. Sometimes makes me wonder how good a job some of the biggest name smiths can do and only charge approx $100-125 for it?

I do agree with you that clipping or grinding the OD of springs is not good smithing practice in general, and I've never had to resort to it in the past. But seems like at this point on this J frame that's going to be the only option to try and get somewhere around another 2# or so out of the DA pull.
But this is going to be just another of my range toys and never used for carry or defensive purposes. I've got quite a few of these types of guns in my safe, they are all tuned to the ragged edge and will run reliably only on my hand build custom ammo. But that's OK, they end up such a joy to shoot.
Thanks again for all your help and will let everyone know how the project ends up.
Sal

 

[Hapworth]

Hapworth,
WOW I see your a major detail freak like myself.
Thanks for the pointers on the extra areas for attention! A couple of which have already been done such as smoothing the inside of the rebound spring channel and polishing the spring itself, details that I've been doing on my Ruger revolver tuning for years.

Yep, getting them just right takes a lot of time. Like you say I may have a weapon I'm very familiar with, and still have to take it apart and back together any number of times, and even a couple trips to the range, chasing the last few glitches till I'm happy with it. Sometimes makes me wonder how good a job some of the biggest name smiths can do and only charge approx $100-125 for it?

I do agree with you that clipping or grinding the OD of springs is not good smithing practice in general, and I've never had to resort to it in the past. But seems like at this point on this J frame that's going to be the only option to try and get somewhere around another 2# or so out of the DA pull.
But this is going to be just another of my range toys and never used for carry or defensive purposes. I've got quite a few of these types of guns in my safe, they are all tuned to the ragged edge and will run reliably only on my hand build custom ammo. But that's OK, they end up such a joy to shoot.
Thanks again for all your help and will let everyone know how the project ends up.
Sal

Happy to be of help, and looking forward to hearing how the project turns out.

And I know what you mean about the cost of most action jobs -- I have trouble imagining a thoroughly head-to-toe job is being done for the asking price; timewise it just doesn't seem to compute.

 

[tomcatt51]

Sometimes makes me wonder how good a job some of the biggest name smiths can do and only charge approx $100-125 for it?

It's a matter of knowing where the point of diminishing returns is. It's easy to polish to a mirror finish and gain nothing over just stoning off the high spots.

 

[Sal1950]

It's a matter of knowing where the point of diminishing returns is. It's easy to polish to a mirror finish and gain nothing over just stoning off the high spots.

True, I guess in the end that's why I ended up learning to do it myself. Before I retired I was a engine builder with some machinist skills. There's a majorly different time/cost factor between a everyday rebuild and a balanced and blueprinted race engine. I want to know my stuff is the best it can be, not just "good enough". LOL
Cheers,
Sal

 

[Sal1950]

Well guess I'll call the 60-10 finished and give you guys the final outcome. This J frame has to be the most finicky weapon I've ever tuned, make one small change and the whole thing goes out of balance. Must have had it apart and together again about 10 times before I said "good enough". LOL
DA pull is now right at 9.5 lbs and SA breaks consistently at 2.5 lbs and is glass rod clean breaking. I was hoping to get the DA pull a little lighter but I had to cut about 1 1/2 coils off a Wilson 8 lb mainspring to get here, final exact length is 1.590". I don't like cutting springs and have never resorted to it before but in this case it was either that or have a 10++ lb DA pull. The rebound spring is a 13 lb Wolff.
Went to the range today and put about 150 rounds threw her. Operation was flawless with my handloaded, Federal primed, ammo. Zero light strikes or any other abnormalities.
DA pull is really smooth so I guess I can live with it being a little higher than desired. At some point I may get a couple extra 8 lb mains and try cutting them even further to see if I can get it closer to the 8 lb area. Going to shoot it for a while and see how it feels later on.
Remember this is only a FYI and a RANGE ONLY mod. I would never recommend this tuning for a defensive gun of any type.
Sal

 

[teezer]

there's a j frame hammer and trigger shim kit out there for smoothing out the action ~~~ haven't tried it but makes sense

search fleabay using "J Frame TRIGGER & HAMMER SHIM KIT"



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[Hapworth]

Sal,

Well done on the tune and thanks for the update.