625 Leading
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Skip Sackett
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No. Please give all of the details of your load. Bullet make/type hardness and all.
Maximumbob54
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Teach him, Skip... He must learn the ways of the leaded force...
Skip Sackett
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Skip Sackett
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Gonna be tough for me tonight. Wife is driving and we are about 4 hours from home now. In the communist state of Obamaland. Snowing big time at home too. Lake affect. Never know what you will get then!
jimkim
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Leading is rarely a bullet hardness issue. It's usually a bullet fit issue. Slug the throats in your cylinder. Go .001-.002" over that. Clean any copper residue out of your barrel. Then shoot the new bullets. If that doesn't work. Slug your bore next. I've not seen it often, but I have seen one revolver with a larger bore than chamber throats. The owner ended up having the cyl. reamed. As long as the bullet fits, you use a good lube, and your bore is relatively smooth, you shouldn't have any problems with leading.
Read this. It should help.
http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_6-6-3_CastHandgun.htm
Read this. It should help.
http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_6-6-3_CastHandgun.htm
Maximumbob54
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At this point I always feel like I'm saying the same old thing.
If the 625 is leading with some but not all loads, then I bet the harder the lead then the more the leading. The .45 ACP isn't a high pressure load, so it doesn't need the lead to be hard enough to bite the rifling at that low pressure. So the lead is so hard that it smears off on the rifling since it can't be cut by it. You may be able to defeat it with enough lube, but it would be just as easy to go with a softer alloy and a good lube. I cast with everything from range scrap to wheel weights and I water drop them all. But the scrap shoots just fine with a light tumble lube with some alox. You may need to make sure you have throats that the bullets aren't just falling through or getting the bullets swaged down too much. Also, make sure the bore is right for .452" but I would bet it is just fine. If this is a new model that doesn't have the sharp edges of the older style rifling then throw out everything I just said since I have no idea on those. I'm not a fan just yet of the EDM/ECM/whatever rifling.
If the 625 is leading with some but not all loads, then I bet the harder the lead then the more the leading. The .45 ACP isn't a high pressure load, so it doesn't need the lead to be hard enough to bite the rifling at that low pressure. So the lead is so hard that it smears off on the rifling since it can't be cut by it. You may be able to defeat it with enough lube, but it would be just as easy to go with a softer alloy and a good lube. I cast with everything from range scrap to wheel weights and I water drop them all. But the scrap shoots just fine with a light tumble lube with some alox. You may need to make sure you have throats that the bullets aren't just falling through or getting the bullets swaged down too much. Also, make sure the bore is right for .452" but I would bet it is just fine. If this is a new model that doesn't have the sharp edges of the older style rifling then throw out everything I just said since I have no idea on those. I'm not a fan just yet of the EDM/ECM/whatever rifling.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
If you have the problem that Jim mentions, you might be able to get around it by using a softer bullet. One that will swags down in the throat and back up at the forcing cone.
FWIW
FWIW
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Well, no reason to be sorry, friend! Your load sounds just fine.
Bob is 100% right. Do your bullets fall through your cylinder?
Are you lubing with Alox?
How are you sizing?
Maximumbob54
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Note on the alox - I love this stuff as tumble lube for low pressure loads like .38 special, .44 special, and .45 ACP. I thin it down a little with mineral spirits and have gone to tumble lubing them in a zip lock baggy. The pressure can go up some getting close to magnum and for those I dip them in uncut alox and let them dry on wax paper. If I move up to "light magnum" type pressure then I have a half and half mix of alox and Johnson's Paste Wax that I dip the bullets in and let them dry on the wax paper. All of the above can be done for dirt cheap.
Bullets are not fall through the cylinder. My lube is RCBS rifle. sizing with a rcbs sizer. Sizing to.452 By the way in has EDM/ECM rifing I have read with that rifing it takes a hard bullet. thank everyone
Maximumbob54
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I haven't used the RCBS rifle lube, but it sounds like it's made for high pressure loads, not for low pressure like the .45 ACP is generating. That may or may not be the or part of the problem.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
I would suggest a softer lube first. White Label Lube's BAC to start. Bon's suggestion for Alox is a good one too. Try this too: take your wheel weight alloy, find some of the stick on type and mix 50-50.
If you want harder bullets, water drop yours. Not needed though.
If you want harder bullets, water drop yours. Not needed though.
Skip Sackett
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Bob's. On an iPod in the copilot seat. Getting ready to drive though! 
Maximumbob54
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FYI if you don't know already. Tumble lube with alox works with any bullets but works best with bullets that have the smaller tumble lube grooves. I cast regular bullets all the time and it works. My rifle bullets that I cast have tumble lube grooves and they work great even at around 2,000 fps in my .30-30 loads.
I won't even joke about trying to sell you some tumble lube grooves...
I won't even joke about trying to sell you some tumble lube grooves...
Sebago Son
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You may need to lap the barrel. I had a 66 that leaded very badly. Polished the bore and the problem went away... same loads, same gun the only thing different was that the burrs and tooling marks got smoothed out...
Maximumbob54
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If it is an ECM/EDM barrel then I'm sure it's as smooth as the baby's bottom.
earplug
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I'm shooting unsized soft lead bullets from six cavity none tumble lube LEE molds. I have three 625-8's I use for various games.
You might try loading your bullets as cast without sizing them. My guns like fat bullets.
Have to watch how deep you seat the bullets as the fat ones will make it hard to chamber if you bulge the case.
I tried the LEE factory seating sizing die and it made the bullets undersize and the leading worse.
You might try loading your bullets as cast without sizing them. My guns like fat bullets.
Have to watch how deep you seat the bullets as the fat ones will make it hard to chamber if you bulge the case.
I tried the LEE factory seating sizing die and it made the bullets undersize and the leading worse.
fredj338
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As noted, leading is more about bullet fit. Slug or pin gage the cyl throats. If they are small, then the bullet is being sized before it reaches the bbl & you are getting gas cutting up the side of the bullet. A harder bullet only makes it worse as it won't bump up to seal the bore. If you are running a 0.452" bullet, your cyl throats want to be 0.4515" at the smallest, 0.452" would be better. I use a 50/50 pure lead/clip ww alloy for that same load of WST in my M625. No appreciable leading.
venomballistics
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when dealing with lead alloys and heat, we are dealing with solder. If youve dabbled with electronics at all you know the stuff wants to stick everywhere you dont want it and takes an act of congress to get it to take to where you do.
it wont take to dirty contacts or in this case .. a barrel.
I have a few barrels that are chronic lead collectors.
what Ive done to stave it off is to run a bore mop through the barrel with some grease to give it a light coat. fire a round, coat, fire coat fire ... after about 5 or 6 grease balls we should have a baked on layer that the bullet lube will replenish for the duration of the metal spreading session. its like seasoning a griddle and it has solved the leading problems of even my most chronic offenders.
if all else fails, take this trick for a test drive.
it wont take to dirty contacts or in this case .. a barrel.
I have a few barrels that are chronic lead collectors.
what Ive done to stave it off is to run a bore mop through the barrel with some grease to give it a light coat. fire a round, coat, fire coat fire ... after about 5 or 6 grease balls we should have a baked on layer that the bullet lube will replenish for the duration of the metal spreading session. its like seasoning a griddle and it has solved the leading problems of even my most chronic offenders.
if all else fails, take this trick for a test drive.
I have made it a habit to firelap every gun I buy. One set of Wheeler bore lap will do more guns than most people will buy in their lifetime.
I shoot cast bullets almost exclusively, some I cast and can control the mix, some are commercial and you get what you get. After fire lapping the bore I seldom get any lead and when I do I use the Outers electronic lead remover. No scrubbing and it has to be 20 years old or more.
I shoot cast bullets almost exclusively, some I cast and can control the mix, some are commercial and you get what you get. After fire lapping the bore I seldom get any lead and when I do I use the Outers electronic lead remover. No scrubbing and it has to be 20 years old or more.
fredj338
Member
No one asked, but where is the leading? If it's the entire length of the bbl, the bore could need lapping. If it's only in the first 1-2", it's likely the bullet is undersized, if it's just at the end, your bullet lube may be failing. It's rarely the hardness of the bullet being at fault. A proper fitting pure lead bullet can be fired to 900fps w/ the right lube & a smooth bbl.
4barrel
Member
Cock hammer real slow--make sure all cyls. are in time--lube too hard?--bullets old?--tight enough taper crimp?--try a .451 sizer?--add a little more hardner?--4.5 231 is one of my all around loads-- pistol & auto--185 swc will shoot just as good.--Just some things I have ran across.--Jack
olskool
Member
you say sometimes a lot and sometimes not. at the worst how much lead are you seeing? it is all about fit. i shoot 30-30 32 win special and 32 remington. all about 1900 fps. i do use gas checks on rifle with 50/50 pure lead and ww non water droped. i lube with star lube in my star sizer luber. and use the same lube on pistols. it is a hard lube that is melted and works fine on pistol bullets. i don't think lube is your problem. you will see some lead that looks like streaks after about 50 shots or so, but it is usually nothing. it should wipe right out with eds red or montna extreem. remember if you shoot jacket bullets you will also see copper.
fredj338
Member
Maybe. Type of powder & vel have little to do with leading. It's almost always bullet fit. A slightly smaller bullet will almost always lead, regardless of vel or alloy. Get the bullet to match the cyl throats or if throats are really small, open the cyl throats to match the groove dia. Then a bullet at least 0.001" LARGER than groove dia will often give best results. Result will be better accuracy & less leading @ all vel levels, even using soft bullets.
bwickens
Member
"Base Obturation" is the $20 term for what you're looking for here. You want your alloy to be soft enough that the pressure will bump up the bullet base to seal the bore and eliminate the gas cutting, or blow by, that causes the leading. How do you figure that out without a lot of trial and error? Lee makes a relatively inexpensive hardness tester that also includes a chart to match load pressure to bullet hardness. But, you will also need a lube soft enough to bump up in concert with the bullet base.
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
I have to agree with Fred here. It is all about fit, fit or um, fit.
If you have the proper fit, the hardness can go either way and not be noticed until you go from one end of a charge to the other.
What I mean is if the bullet fits, which is the most important thing, a hard bullet will not lead until you get too light of a charge and one too soft will not lead until you get too heavy of one. And I mean drastically on both ends.
I have a Lee hardness tester. For the most part, it stays in the drawer. The charts that come with it will give you a ball park BUT, I have found the numbers to be way off for what a bullet will take as a maximum if they fit properly. What do I mean? He says a bullet of xxBHN has a maximum pressure of XXXXPSI to work right. I have found that a BHN much softer will work at much higher pressures than he lays out in my firearms IF they fit right.
Most, like 99% of all of my bullets are between 12BHN & 18BHN and I have driven the 12BHN just as hard as I have the 18BHN and had no leading. It is because they fit. Seems like I keep saying that!
If you have the proper fit, the hardness can go either way and not be noticed until you go from one end of a charge to the other.
What I mean is if the bullet fits, which is the most important thing, a hard bullet will not lead until you get too light of a charge and one too soft will not lead until you get too heavy of one. And I mean drastically on both ends.
I have a Lee hardness tester. For the most part, it stays in the drawer. The charts that come with it will give you a ball park BUT, I have found the numbers to be way off for what a bullet will take as a maximum if they fit properly. What do I mean? He says a bullet of xxBHN has a maximum pressure of XXXXPSI to work right. I have found that a BHN much softer will work at much higher pressures than he lays out in my firearms IF they fit right.
Most, like 99% of all of my bullets are between 12BHN & 18BHN and I have driven the 12BHN just as hard as I have the 18BHN and had no leading. It is because they fit. Seems like I keep saying that!
bwickens
Member
Agreed, the Lee kit gives ballpark figures and I use those as a starting point. As for, what was it? Oh yes, FIT. There have been Smith .45s in the past (25-5) where that has been an issue between the chamber throats and the bore IIRC. In the old one I traded off for a 625 Mountain Gun, hollowbase bullets shot the best for that reason.
