629 PC, shoots high

[Snub44]

Hi fellas, first post here, and I'm in need of some advice.

For a long time now I have wanted a big bore smith snub, and I finally special ordered a PC 629 .44, 2 5/8" barrel. I was a little disappointed when the gun arrived in a plastic box instead of the fantastic metal ones that I've seen; the gun was also covered in fine surface rust, which was a little surprising. I cleaned the rust off and the gun now looks beautiful, but I expected a bit more from an upper-end S&W.

Today was the first day at the range with the new beauty, and it was also a bit disappointing. With two loads tested, the gun shoots around 7" high at 15 yards. There is no room to move the rear sight down any further. Groups were around 1", so accuracy is great, it just doesn't shoot where I point it.

Questions:
1. Do the Performance Center guns go through less quality control than a normal smith? I've never seen a new gun (stainless especially) with rust on it.

2. What are my options here? Taller front sight maybe?

I would really appreciate any advice you have. This is my first Smith and Wesson, and so far I have kind of a sour taste in my mouth that I'd love to get rid of!

 

[Ed45]

Please mention the ammunition you were shooting. 44SPL or 44MAG? I know hindsight is 20/20 but it would have been good to have a picture of the surface for documentary purposes.

 

[Snub44]

I had two loads, both 240 grain. One was .44 magnum, one was .44 special. Point of impact was the same with both loads.

As for the rust on the gun, yeah I probably should have taken a picture. I was just in a hurry to get the oxidation off of my lovely new gun.

 

[scooter123]

What sight picture were you using? Yeah it does matter and with a short barreled revolver the effect of using the wrong sight picture can be part of what you have observed.

Normally revolvers are regulated for the old classic Bullseye sight picture. This means a line drawn across the top of the sights is aligned with the bottom of the bullseye, sort of like a golf ball sitting on a tee. BTW, this is usually referred to as a 6 O'clock hold, because you actually aim at the 6 O'clock position on the bullseye. More recently some makers have started using what I call a Top Line sight picture where the top line of the sights splits the center of the bullseye and some makers such as Sig Sauer use a Combat sight picture where the POI corresponds with the dot in the front sight. Obviously these differing sight pictures can cause some confusion and complaints about guns shooting low or high.

However, this does not explain a 7 inch difference at only 15 yards. Another possiblity that might explain this is how firm you are in controlling the muzzle flip. If you let the gun flip a bit free in recoil you will see it throw shots high. With a barrel this short I wouldn't expect it to be as great as 7 inches but it could be a contributing factor if you are also using a Combat sight picture.

I would suggest trying to firm up your wrist and using a 6 o'clock hold and see the effect of doing this. If that brings the shots on center or runs the POI a bit low, you've found a solution.

If it doesn't, I would suspect that the rear sight blade installed on your sample is too short, likely because someone grabbed the wrong part. Fact is the front sight used on your 629 is probably unique to that particular model and barrel length, so finding taller front sight isn't likely. However, S&W has been using various height rear sight blades for ages, so it's not difficult to conceive that you recieved a rear sight intended for a different model. If so a call to S&W about having this fixed under the warranty will provide resolution. Yeah, it's a PITA but S&W has a great reputation for fixing mistakes like this quickly.

 

[Snub44]

Thank you very much for your response Scooter.

I am using what you describe as a Top Line hold. If I draw a line across he top of my sight picture, I would expect the bullet to impact at the very tip of the front sight. I can see the benefits of the 6 O'clock hold for bullseye shooting at known ranges, but for a field gun it seems a bit odd to me. For instance, to hit the 50 yard plates with this gun I had to use some strange Kentucky elevation and hold about a foot below the plates to consistently hit them. As best I can tell, with the sights completely bottomed out the gun is zeroed at maybe 100 or 125 yards.

As far as the grip goes, it was pretty firm.

I may be wrong, but wouldn't this gun need a shorter rear sight or a tall front?

 

[Ed45]

I had two loads, both 240 grain. One was .44 magnum, one was .44 special. Point of impact was the same with both loads.

As for the rust on the gun, yeah I probably should have taken a picture. I was just in a hurry to get the oxidation off of my lovely new gun.

I'd expect the 44MAG to print below the 44SPL. Were these reloads or commercial ammo?

 

[scooter123]

I've got to think about it because I always seem to get it wrong. Lets see, rule is rear sight down, POI shifts down. So, my original post was in error and you probably recieved a gun with a rear sight that has a blade that is too tall. What you need is a shorter rear sight blade.

If you have some calipers, or a precision scale handy, I would suggest that you measure the height of your current rear sight blade and note it down. Then give S&W a call and talk to them about your problem. If in fact your gun was shipped with the wrong rear sight assembly, they may just ship you the correct rear sight assembly. If I were running S&W's service center that's what I would do, it costs a lot less to ship a new rear sight assembly than shipping a revolver both ways.

IF they do ship you a new rear sight assembly it'll probably take a week or so. During that time I would suggest that you pick up a properly fitted screwdriver for the mounting screw if you don't already have one. I'll also warn you that that screw is quite tight, so apply firm downward pressure while turning it slowly to break it free. You'll also want to snug up the new sight equally as tight or you might find that screw shooting loose.

I would also suggest that you ask S&W what sight picture they are regulating their sights to today. I have an older manual for the 686 and back in the 80's they were regulating the sights for a 6 o'clock hold. I'd be interested to know if that is still true today because the current manual make no mention of the sight picture in use today. BTW, I've never been a fan of the 6 o'clock hold, IMO it's too reliant on the target featuring a bullseye sized to NRA specification and for specific ranges. I much prefer either a Top Line hold or Combat sight picture. Actually my strongest preference is the Combat sight picture because it's so instinctive.

 

[AveragEd]

Back in the mid-1980s, I bought an new Model 14 K-38 with an 8-3/8" barrel. I intended to use it for varmint hunting when the hay was too high for longer ranges with a rifle but it printed extremely low with 110-grain hollow points. It did shoot right on with 148-grain wadcutters.

I called S&W, was told to return it and they replaced the rear sight blade with a higher one that could be adjusted to work with either load.

Ed

 

[Snub44]

Good idea about taking a precise measurement of the rear sight, i'll do that before I call S&W tomorrow. Hopefully it did just get the wrong sight assembly screwed on at the factory, that would be a nice easy fix.

I will also ask S&W what sight picture they are building their guns for these days.

Ed, that's exactly what I'm after: having enough adjustability in the sight so that I can zero it for any load that I cook up.

 

[MTKTM]

There are a couple of threads on here now about S&W revolvers "shooting high". Iron sights, especially on a handgun, and even moreso on a big-caliber/short-barreled handgun, are a little tricky and, as they say, results can vary. Shooter ability, eyesight, sight alignment, flinch/recoil anticipation, lots of factors enter in.

When someone registers such a complaint, and especially if it is a fairly new or casual shooter, I am inclined to recommend that they have the gun fired by a very experienced shooter and see what he/she thinks before assuming the gun is messed up, needs new sights, adjustment, etc.

 

[GyMac]

You need a taller front sight or a lower rear sight blade. I've replaced the rear sight blades on two S&W's to get them to hit lower. They are available from Brownell's, but this sounds like an issue for the factory.

 

[stevieboy]

What is a bit odd about your post is that your gun has the same POI with .44 special and .44 magnum rounds. Generally, faster moving rounds hit LOWER than slower moving rounds because, with a faster round, there is less time for the gun's muzzle to rise from recoil before the bullet exits the gun. The fact that you're getting the exact same POI with a fast and a relatively slow round suggests to me that the problem is not the height of your sight.

Here's one thing to check. Check the screw on the front end of the rear sight assembly. Is it tight? Or has it loosened? If it's backed out significantly, it will cause your rear sight to tip backwards and that will cause you to to raise your front sight in order to "square it off" with the rear sight blades. That will produce high hits. I know because this has happened to me. I have a Model 27 and I have to tighten the rear sight's front screw virtually every trip to the range because it will back out from the force of recoil.

My other question and this isn't meant to be facetious or sarcastic. How's your vision? I ask that because, as my eyes have aged, I've gone through periods where the front sight on my revolvers becomes a blur. Until I get that problem corrected I have a tendency to raise the front sight just above the line made by the rear sight blades, causing me to hit high.

 

[Snub44]

Thanks for the replies fellas.

I don't think that it is my shooting ability. I have been shooting pistols for about 15 years, 9 competitively. I can do around 3" groups standing at 25 yards with my Glock 17 that I use in IDPA/IPSC. I may have somehow turned into a bad shot a few days ago, but it's unlikely.

As for the different POI, I have never experienced a significant change in POI with hotter loads of the same bullet weight. Maybe it's different with revolvers.

I called S&W yesterday and talked to a rude young man named Rob, who said that I should send the gun back.

 

[NE450No2]

What is a bit odd about your post is that your gun has the same POI with .44 special and .44 magnum rounds. Generally, faster moving rounds hit LOWER than slower moving rounds because, with a faster round, there is less time for the gun's muzzle to rise from recoil before the bullet exits the gun. The fact that you're getting the exact same POI with a fast and a relatively slow round suggests to me that the problem is not the height of your sight.

Here's one thing to check. Check the screw on the front end of the rear sight assembly. Is it tight? Or has it loosened? If it's backed out significantly, it will cause your rear sight to tip backwards and that will cause you to to raise your front sight in order to "square it off" with the rear sight blades. That will produce high hits. I know because this has happened to me. I have a Model 27 and I have to tighten the rear sight's front screw virtually every trip to the range because it will back out from the force of recoil.

My other question and this isn't meant to be facetious or sarcastic. How's your vision? I ask that because, as my eyes have aged, I've gone through periods where the front sight on my revolvers becomes a blur. Until I get that problem corrected I have a tendency to raise the front sight just above the line made by the rear sight blades, causing me to hit high.

Many people report the same point of impact with 44 mag loads and 44 Special loads, with 240 gr bullets.

Here is how it happens.
The 44 Mags, with their higher velocity have less barrel time...
44 Specials even with their lower recoil have longer barrel time. So actually the handgun has recoiled UP, more before the bullet exits the barrel.

This is the same as if you had aimed higher. So both loads hit "pretty near" the same place.

This does not happen with all shooters. If you are a "loose holder" or a very "firm holder", the two loads will not hit in the same place.

This is hard for many to accept, but I have seen in many times over the years. You can have 5 or even 10 people shoot the same S&W revolver with 44 Mags and 44 Specials. It will work for some, and not for others.

 

[EvenStephen]

I guess I have a lot to learn. I'd have thought a 44spcl bullet would drop more and hit lower since it's traveling slower than a 44mag. BTW, I've got the same gun and use it for my avatar.