642 Airweight & Speer Gold Dots

[BlueLineNYPD]

I've carried Speer Gold Dots in all my handguns for years, both revolvers and semi autos. Lately though, I've been rethinking my carry choice for the 642 Airweight. The Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P Short Barrel is highly regarded (especially by the NYPD) as one of the most reliable options for a snub nose. But I've been hearing that its expansion rate out of a snub is only around 40%. When it expands, the performance is excellent but if that number is accurate, wouldn't something like a wadcutter (Buffalo Bore 150gr standard pressure) or the Black Hills Honey Badger (a copper fluted design) both of which don't depend on expansion, be the more consistent option?

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

Yeah, but only retired geezer cops believe in hot wadcutters. Like me. Make em' bleed out both sides.

 

[Riposte1]

To each thier own. The 135 Gold dot does expand from a 1 7/8" in most of the test medium I've shot but when a bullet expands the "brakes" go on.

You can never tell what a bullet will do in flesh by shooting non-living materials, nor how deep - you can only compare them to other bullets in the same material (at the same temperature) - so much depends on what you hit going in (clothing, muscle, bones going in?)

I worked a murder case once in which the victim was shot with Remington 125 gr SJHP +P for a 642 - the autopsy showed the bullet did not deform at all and still went less than 10" (the bullet hit no bone at all) - took him 4 days to die from infection.

We each have to work out our own salvation, mine is to carry Buffalo Bore 158 SWCHP +P in steel guns and std pressure in aluminum guns with either the same bullet or WCs.

That doesn't mean I think the +P Gold Dot is a bad load, just perhaps not quite as good as I can get.

Riposte

 

[CH4]

Despite the newer offerings, I still prefer to carry Gold Dots for SD. I buy every box I can find in 38, 357, 40, 45 and 44 Spl.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

We each have to work out our own salvation, mine is to carry Buffalo Bore 158 SWCHP +P in steel guns and std pressure in aluminum guns with either the same bullet or WCs.
Riposte

I sure would like to load up with that BB 158 SWCHP but I spend a lot of time in NJ.

 

[BlueLineNYPD]

To each thier own. The 135 Gold dot does expand from a 1 7/8" in most of the test medium I've shot but when a bullet expands the "brakes" go on.

You can never tell what a bullet will do in flesh by shooting non-living materials, nor how deep - you can only compare them to other bullets in the same material (at the same temperature) - so much depends on what you hit going in (clothing, muscle, bones going in?)

I worked a murder case once in which the victim was shot with Remington 125 gr SJHP +P for a 642 - the autopsy showed the bullet did not deform at all and still went less than 10" (the bullet hit no bone at all) - took him 4 days to die from infection.

We each have to work out our own salvation, mine is to carry Buffalo Bore 158 SWCHP +P in steel guns and std pressure in aluminum guns with either the same bullet or WCs.

That doesn't mean I think the +P Gold Dot is a bad load, just perhaps not quite as good as I can get.

Riposte

This was one of the things that got me thinking.. if you scroll to the bottom of the page, you could see the ballistic results -

Premium 38 Special +P Ammo For Sale - 135 gr Speer Gold Dot Ammo - 50 Rounds

Premium 38 Special + P Ammo For Sale - 135 gr JHP Speer Gold Dot Ammo - 50 Rounds

www.luckygunner.com

 

[walkin' trails]

I picked up a couple of boxes of Federal 158 grain +p lead SWCHP a while back for my steel Js. The recoil, honey, was more than I anticipated. I'd carried and shot +p+ 147s and Winchester or Remington LSWCHPs with it for years as i never suffered as much recoil aversion as I do now from that load. I'm currently trying other stuff I find commercially available, and am also going to break down and order some 148 grain WC from Georgia Arms. One of my requirements is that the round should be capable of POA accuracy out to 25 yards (yeah, I sound like I'm holding onto a long bygone myth). Have been thinking about a 642/442 and how a load configuration recoils is as important to me as its accuracy out to 25 and its terminal performance.

 

[chief38]

I've carried Speer Gold Dots in all my handguns for years, both revolvers and semi autos. Lately though, I've been rethinking my carry choice for the 642 Airweight. The Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P Short Barrel is highly regarded (especially by the NYPD) as one of the most reliable options for a snub nose. But I've been hearing that its expansion rate out of a snub is only around 40%. When it expands, the performance is excellent but if that number is accurate, wouldn't something like a wadcutter (Buffalo Bore 150gr standard pressure) or the Black Hills Honey Badger (a copper fluted design) both of which don't depend on expansion, be the more consistent option?

Buffalo Bore #20A 158 grain LSWCHP-GC +P "Heavy" has always been my #1 choice but I did use a M60-7 stainless steel version, not an Airweight. Quite honestly, the BB load out of an Airweight is gonna be brutal! If you are using an Airweight, I would recommend staying with the Speer 135 Grain GDHP. Maybe not as good a performer as the BB, however your follow up shots will be faster I'd think. You could try the BB load, but Airweights are gonna be rough ride to say the least! I'd also limit the use of that BB load in an Airweight revolver!

 

[Rock185]

As long as my 640 or 642 was loaded with something better than standard pressure 158 grain lead round nose, I didn't worry much about it. For about 15 years, I was issued the Federal 129 grain +P Hydra-Shok. At some point I saw the Lucky Gunner tests of this load. It did not fare well; as in no expansion from a 2", or even 4", revolver. But I never expected much out of a .38 snubby anyway.

FWIW, I chronographed two of the Underwood .38+P offerings in a S&W 642. The 125 JHP and 158 SWC both exceeded 1000 FPS in the 2" 642. These, or the similar BB loads, should provide about all anyone could want in their little .38 5-shooters. BTW, that 158 grain load in an airweight revolver might produce a bit more recoil than some might expect from the lowly .38 Spcl

 

[BlueLineNYPD]

On my last trip to the range, I ran Buffalo Bore's 150gr standard pressure wadcutters. After 20 rounds I switched it up.. recoil was noticeably hotter than the Speer Gold Dots.

 

[Riposte1]

I sure would like to load up with that BB 158 SWCHP but I spend a lot of time in NJ.

I hear you (and feel your pain!) - I guess you are stuck with the WC or SWC solid.

Not sure anyone factory loads a WFN or Ogival Wadcutter - those might be an option.

BB and Underwood load a .357 WFN, but that wouldn't be for a J-frame I would think, though I could fire one in my 640 .357, but standar .357 is a bit much for that, and either of those makers load pretty stout!

Riposte

 

[stansdds]

I worked a murder case once in which the victim was shot with Remington 125 gr SJHP +P for a 642 - the autopsy showed the bullet did not deform at all and still went less than 10" (the bullet hit no bone at all) - took him 4 days to die from infection.

That 38 Special load used the same bullet that used in the highly respected 357 Magnum load. Those old SJHP bullets needed well over 1000 fps to expand and that was simply impossible to achieve in 38 Special, even at +P velocity. Modern bullets generally require a lot less velocity for reliable expansion.

 

[stansdds]

I still like the Speer 135 grain 38 Special +P Short Barrel load. If I could not obtain that ammo, Remington's 125 grain Golden Saber +P would be my second pick.

 

[Riposte1]

That 38 Special load used the same bullet that used in the highly respected 357 Magnum load. Those old SJHP bullets needed well over 1000 fps to expand and that was simply impossible to achieve in 38 Special, even at +P velocity. Modern bullets generally require a lot less velocity for reliable expansion.

I shot three small deer with the same bullet in .357 two in 4" barrels and one in 8" - none of them worked well (but they did all hit the right place and exited - I was able to find the deer when they died - one of them ran 440 yards. (the hole in the heart was tight on my little finger - I got the impression that bullet did not expand much).

We had a deptuy who had retired from another agency - when was part of that he shot a woman in the face with his 4" .357 loaded with remington 125 JHP - it bounced off her cheek, but it did leave a mark and she dropped the gun she was holding - she never lost her feet though. The Officer was underwhelmed...but they did seem to work a little better tothe body.

Back in the 70s I shot woodchucks with hand-loads using 125 gr. Hornadys (this is the old design not the XTP) at 1800 fps (I had an 8 3/8" 27 I sure wish I had not traded off!) - those sure opened up - I really would not want to shoot someting much bigger, but the later XTP does seem to work OK.

Oddly, I have some Remington 210 gr. SJHP bullets in .44 (never seen that in a factory load but I bought the bullets off midway) - I shot a big doe with it in .44 Spl. at 1000 fps - it dropped to the shot (but the bullet did exit) - range was ~25 yards, same as I was shooting the .357.

Still a handful of cases does not produce "data" - in fact 1000 cases of the same caliber with the same shot placement does not produce "reliable data" simply because the mind set and physical description of what you are shooting varies so much.

Riposte

 

[Baxter6551]

I just recently purchased this book on the Forum.
This author, who seems to know of what he speaks, recommends the plus P 158 gr LSWCHP.

 

[DixieRanger]

Goes without saying each has favorite load. Favor Speer 158 SWCHP for S&W 640. All kinda tests to show penetratition and expansion. As expected varied results to gain favor. For self defense the goal is to stop the threat so shot placement is primary and the more leaking holes the better.

 

[Dump1567]

I just recently purchased this book on the Forum.
This author, who seems to know of what he speaks, recommends the plus P 158 gr LSWCHP.

I think he states he finds it on par with .45 acp 230 gr. ball. He's also not a WC fan according to his new book (not sure if that's in the old book)?

The Snubby Revolver, 3rd Edition

Anyway, based on Gel tests I've seen, my number one carry in a 2" (actually 1.88") J frame is the Federal 129 gr. Hydra-shok deep. Other choices would be the Hornady Critical Defense 110 gr +P. Or non +p version for alloy frame non +P rated guns. I'm also a fan of the Remington GS 125 gr. +P.

Although I have WC ammo, HP is usually my preferred carry.

But as we all chase the "Magic" One Shot Stop load, it probably doesn't matter all that much. Quality ammo you can get your hits with, with good penetration, and luck should win the day.

 

[T. McIntyre]

148 grain poly coated wadcutters are all I carry in my 442.

Of course I know the guy who makes them..

The 148 grain poly wadcutters are super popular (along with the .32 H&Rs). I had run out of them last week, but have them back in stock again now.

I have carried WCs in my J Frame 442 for decades and they have always worked.

Tank did an article last year for American Handgunner.

https://americanhandgunner.com/ammo/full-wadcutters-from-target-to-tactical/

 

[Chuck Edwards]

One of the positive things about this thread is the agreement that first, you gotta hit them in the right place.

The late, great Pat Rogers has been quoted as saying, "They all work pretty good, if you know how to shoot."