I just purchased my second smith and wesson. I picked up a 686 talo with three inch barrel. Only one issue, something is a miss with the trigger. DA is fine. SA when the hammer is pulled back sometimes it randomly goes foward on its own, also if it is back and you push ever so slightly on the hammer it goes foward. My thoughts are the mainspring and or the trigger spring. Maybe a botched job by the previous owner. Considering buying a wolf spring kit but would be fine with a factory kit as well.
686 6 trigger issues
- Thread starter upstate88
- Start date
scooter123
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 6,959
- Reaction score
- 4,399
- City & State/Province
- Metro Detroit, Michigan
This is called Push Off and it is NOT spring related. The problem is the sear surface on the trigger and perhaps the hammer have rounded over. As for why this happened, somewhere in it's past a previous owner decided to adjust the angle on the sear surface on the trigger.
Before reduced rate rebound springs became available it was a common technique for lightening the single action trigger pull. The problem with doing this is that it places the wear point on the sear surface on the hammer on it's tip. As a result, it will cause pushoff after enough cycles.
As far superior method to lighten the single action trigger pull is to install a lighter rebound spring and leave the sear surfaces untouched. I've found that a 13 or 14 lbs. rebound spring will set the single action break to about 3 lbs. even, just where I like my tirgger to break.
Now, if you are fortunate, all that needs to be done is stone the single action sear on the trigger to the factory angle. If someone has been pushing the gun off the sear like feeling a sore tooth, it's likely that the hammer will have to be replaced and fitted to the gun. There is also a possibility that the trigger will have to be replaced as well but that can only be determined by how much damage is present on the sear on the trigger.
Following is a link to a thread of a members trigger tuning jig, take a look at the second picture for how the trigger is positioned so that the correct angle can be restored by setting the angle with a 6 inch long stone. Pay close attention to the 2 points on the trigger that are used to position it to set the correct angle. Also note the use of a back plate to insure that sear is reground perfectly square.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/195061-tuning-jigs.html
Before reduced rate rebound springs became available it was a common technique for lightening the single action trigger pull. The problem with doing this is that it places the wear point on the sear surface on the hammer on it's tip. As a result, it will cause pushoff after enough cycles.
As far superior method to lighten the single action trigger pull is to install a lighter rebound spring and leave the sear surfaces untouched. I've found that a 13 or 14 lbs. rebound spring will set the single action break to about 3 lbs. even, just where I like my tirgger to break.
Now, if you are fortunate, all that needs to be done is stone the single action sear on the trigger to the factory angle. If someone has been pushing the gun off the sear like feeling a sore tooth, it's likely that the hammer will have to be replaced and fitted to the gun. There is also a possibility that the trigger will have to be replaced as well but that can only be determined by how much damage is present on the sear on the trigger.
Following is a link to a thread of a members trigger tuning jig, take a look at the second picture for how the trigger is positioned so that the correct angle can be restored by setting the angle with a 6 inch long stone. Pay close attention to the 2 points on the trigger that are used to position it to set the correct angle. Also note the use of a back plate to insure that sear is reground perfectly square.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/195061-tuning-jigs.html
Thanks a bunch, so far so good. I have not had a chance to get it apart and look at the damage but I was in the Army and im a worst scenario kind of person where would I find a replacement forged target hammer and trigger? I did some looking around not a whole lot of luck.
scooter123
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 6,959
- Reaction score
- 4,399
- City & State/Province
- Metro Detroit, Michigan
Your 686-6 is post MIM and post 2000. Personally, I favor the models with the MIM internals, the process that S&W uses for MIM has a history for being as durable as the older forged parts, they need a LOT less fitting and take about 1/2 as long to tune the action, and the MIM parts have particles in the material that will dull carbide which means that they will withstand wear better.
In addition, your 686-6 is fully covered by S&W's lifetime warranty, which means that they will do whatever is needed to get to 100% without it costing you a dime. BTW, technically to qualify for the lifetime warranty you are supposed to be the original owner, however in 2 years I've not seen one single report of S&W not doing warranty repairs on guns that were purchased used and made after 1989. BTW, the 686-6 is post 2000, well into coverage under the lifetime warranty.
I would suggest that you contact S&W, NOT mention it was purchased used, and tell them that you have a 686-6 with Pushoff. They'll issue a return shipping label and have it back to you in 2 or 3 weeks if the recent posts about rapid turnaround on warranty repairs are any indication.
In addition, your 686-6 is fully covered by S&W's lifetime warranty, which means that they will do whatever is needed to get to 100% without it costing you a dime. BTW, technically to qualify for the lifetime warranty you are supposed to be the original owner, however in 2 years I've not seen one single report of S&W not doing warranty repairs on guns that were purchased used and made after 1989. BTW, the 686-6 is post 2000, well into coverage under the lifetime warranty.
I would suggest that you contact S&W, NOT mention it was purchased used, and tell them that you have a 686-6 with Pushoff. They'll issue a return shipping label and have it back to you in 2 or 3 weeks if the recent posts about rapid turnaround on warranty repairs are any indication.
scott625b
Member
upstate88:
Judging from the number of your posts, you should be too young to be a member of the Nonmimlock tribe and as such be aware that what you may read on this forum should not be "parrotted" just because someone else said it. Forged hammers and triggers were state of the art for their day and have, for the most part, been replaced by newer state of the art methods of manufacture. These methods were not adopted to create "cheap guns", but to keep the manufacturing costs of producing a quality firearm at a level so that people could afford to purchase them. Enjoy your 686!
Judging from the number of your posts, you should be too young to be a member of the Nonmimlock tribe and as such be aware that what you may read on this forum should not be "parrotted" just because someone else said it. Forged hammers and triggers were state of the art for their day and have, for the most part, been replaced by newer state of the art methods of manufacture. These methods were not adopted to create "cheap guns", but to keep the manufacturing costs of producing a quality firearm at a level so that people could afford to purchase them. Enjoy your 686!
I have enjoyed my 386NG for almost a year now, and look foward to spending some time with the 686 6.
What does MIM mean?
The reason I ask about forged hammer and trigger is because it was part of the "talo" package that came with the gun.
regarding the internal lock that is present on both my smiths, I have read that some choose to have this removed.
What does MIM mean?
The reason I ask about forged hammer and trigger is because it was part of the "talo" package that came with the gun.
regarding the internal lock that is present on both my smiths, I have read that some choose to have this removed.
scooter123
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 6,959
- Reaction score
- 4,399
- City & State/Province
- Metro Detroit, Michigan
MIM stands for Metal Injection Molding. What takes place is that a "slurry" of powdered metal containing a binder is injected into a mold. Once that mix has set up it's then removed from the mold and subsequently heated to red hot. During this heating process two things are accomplished, the binder is cooked off and the metal particles fuse together forming the final part in a finished and heat treated condition.
I believe that currently there are 2 distinctly different material in use for the MIM hammers and triggers. One produces a finished part with an appearance similar to the flash chromed forged parts used in some of the stainless revolvers such as my 1988 vintage 67-1. The other material has an appearance of the older color case hardened forged parts, I have hammer and trigger that use this material in a 610-3 purchased in 2009. In spite of looking like forged parts, they are in fact MIM, while the trigger in my 610-3 looks like it's forged, it has the open back that is an attribute of MIM triggers. I'll also note that the "case coloring" on the MIM parts isn't very durable, in the 2 years of use I have on my 610-3 there are now areas where the coloring is starting to rub off on the trigger. BTW, I regard this as a big "so what", I bought the 610 to shoot, not look at.
Point is, when it comes to S&W revolvers you cannot assume anything. They have a long history of making a batch of parts and then using that stock of parts to assemble revolvers for YEARS, with some models perhaps 10 or 15 years. Quite simply you won't know what you actually have until you actually check.
Fortunately, it is very easy to spot the MIM triggers and I think that it may be safe to assume that if a gun has an MIM trigger it will also have an MIM hammer. The way to spot the MIM triggers is place your thumb where the trigger finger rests and put your index finger behind the trigger opposite that thumb. If the rear of the trigger is solid at this point, it's forged. If the rear of the trigger is "scooped out" it's MIM. Note, both types of triggers are hollowed out on the curved portion that moves into the frame, it's only on the MIM triggers where they are "scooped out" behind where your trigger finger rests.
Now for a bit of bad news. Hammers and triggers of either type can be difficult to find. In addition, many gunsmithing sources such as Brownel's don't always have an accurate or clear description of a particular part. One thing where I think Brownel's falls flat on their face is that they do NOT provide the S&W part number in the listing for a part. Bottomline, the way these vendors have their online catalogs set up you won't really know what you've bought until you have received the parts.
You won't like hearing this due to the cost for shipping, but if a new hammer and trigger are needed for your gun, the safest course of action is to send the gun to S&W for service. Note, if you need these parts due to wear, your 686-6 is covered by the lifetime warranty, which means they won't charge you for either shipping or the warranty service. However, it's quite possible that your gun will be returned with the current "flash chromed" looking hammer and trigger because they may not have any of the case colored parts on hand. Because of this, I would strongly suggest that you call Customer Service, make note of the name of the rep you talk to, and be very specific about what is currently installed in your 686 and that you want it returned with parts that have a similar appearance. That way if they have the parts to repair your 686 to it's original appearance you'll know that and if they can only offer you the bright silver finished parts you won't get surprized when it's returned.
I believe that currently there are 2 distinctly different material in use for the MIM hammers and triggers. One produces a finished part with an appearance similar to the flash chromed forged parts used in some of the stainless revolvers such as my 1988 vintage 67-1. The other material has an appearance of the older color case hardened forged parts, I have hammer and trigger that use this material in a 610-3 purchased in 2009. In spite of looking like forged parts, they are in fact MIM, while the trigger in my 610-3 looks like it's forged, it has the open back that is an attribute of MIM triggers. I'll also note that the "case coloring" on the MIM parts isn't very durable, in the 2 years of use I have on my 610-3 there are now areas where the coloring is starting to rub off on the trigger. BTW, I regard this as a big "so what", I bought the 610 to shoot, not look at.
Point is, when it comes to S&W revolvers you cannot assume anything. They have a long history of making a batch of parts and then using that stock of parts to assemble revolvers for YEARS, with some models perhaps 10 or 15 years. Quite simply you won't know what you actually have until you actually check.
Fortunately, it is very easy to spot the MIM triggers and I think that it may be safe to assume that if a gun has an MIM trigger it will also have an MIM hammer. The way to spot the MIM triggers is place your thumb where the trigger finger rests and put your index finger behind the trigger opposite that thumb. If the rear of the trigger is solid at this point, it's forged. If the rear of the trigger is "scooped out" it's MIM. Note, both types of triggers are hollowed out on the curved portion that moves into the frame, it's only on the MIM triggers where they are "scooped out" behind where your trigger finger rests.
Now for a bit of bad news. Hammers and triggers of either type can be difficult to find. In addition, many gunsmithing sources such as Brownel's don't always have an accurate or clear description of a particular part. One thing where I think Brownel's falls flat on their face is that they do NOT provide the S&W part number in the listing for a part. Bottomline, the way these vendors have their online catalogs set up you won't really know what you've bought until you have received the parts.
You won't like hearing this due to the cost for shipping, but if a new hammer and trigger are needed for your gun, the safest course of action is to send the gun to S&W for service. Note, if you need these parts due to wear, your 686-6 is covered by the lifetime warranty, which means they won't charge you for either shipping or the warranty service. However, it's quite possible that your gun will be returned with the current "flash chromed" looking hammer and trigger because they may not have any of the case colored parts on hand. Because of this, I would strongly suggest that you call Customer Service, make note of the name of the rep you talk to, and be very specific about what is currently installed in your 686 and that you want it returned with parts that have a similar appearance. That way if they have the parts to repair your 686 to it's original appearance you'll know that and if they can only offer you the bright silver finished parts you won't get surprized when it's returned.
I sent the pistol to Smith and Wesson on a monday (free shipping label from Smith) I had an email telling me that the gunsmith had my firearm by thursday it was shipped by the following tuesday and I had my gun back with a new trigger by friday. I paid a grand total of $2.38 for a box to ship it in. I could not be happier. trigger pull is great.
scooter123
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 6,959
- Reaction score
- 4,399
- City & State/Province
- Metro Detroit, Michigan
You've got to love a company that stands behind their product that way that S&W does with the revolvers. Best Customer Service in the business IMO.
timpitera
Member
What a helpful guy
Scooter123 for GUN-
BUDDY of the year!
Scooter123 for GUN-
BUDDY of the year!My gawd, another S&W Customer Service "horror" story!
Mine was about the same except that Fedex decided to store my gun in Memphis over the weekend. I suspect some of the employees were fondling it....
