686 Plus Pro- Trigger Jam/inconsistency.

[S.FL.686pro]

Hi,

First post here. Thanks in advance for your words and advice. Yesterday I bought a 686Plus Pro Series, I actually traded an STI 1911 for it.
It seemed slick, a little weak on the trigger reset but smooth, and being new to revolvers I thought it was all good to go. Trigger worked just fine on inspection and dry fire, supposedly has a 4# DA and less than 1# SA. All the work preformed by a gunsmith with a receipt for $150 dollars. A picture of the gunsmithing report will be attached to the post but I will leave the gunsmiths name out until I personally speak with him. Who knows if it was really his fault or not people do weird things with their guns.
So, went to the range today. It worked but was horrid. Trigger would jam up, pull inconsistently, not fully reset and require a manual pull forward or it would jam up or just skip firing the cartridge in the next chamber. Now its pretty much just gunked and wont pull without significant effort...however every now and then it will get one good pull out of it.
Took the side plate off and tried to utilize some general knowledge to diagnose but when I pulled the trigger a piece flew out and hit me in the face...so I promptly put it away.

Can anyone share some knowledge/know-how of what it could be?

Here is a picture of the receipt for the work that was done to it before I purchased it. What do you think the smith intended to convey by the last comment "requires full assembly"?

As a side note: the cylinder is a bitch to release from its locked in position, not sure if this matters. However the plunger is straight and once out it spins freely like a top.

Thanks for the help.

 

[kaaskop49]

attn S.FL.686Pro

Welcome to the Forum! Can never have too many new members. You have wisely not disclosed the name of the business that did the 'work' on this gun. Do we even know this person is a gunsmith? Is he even licensed? Why would he discuss what he did with you, you were not his customer.

I am frankly amazed at the condition of the revolver that you describe. It definitely has to be examined by another 'smith. Perhaps the damage is so extensive that it has to be returned to S&W to bring its condition back to 'factory new,' even if you pay for the work. But somebody else qualified has to have a look at the gun. This is all I can offer here.

 

[scooter123]

First, a S&W revolver won't FIRE a cartridge with a 4 pound DA trigger pull, a minimum of about 7 pounds is required to provide enough energy to ignite the primer. Second, a 1 pound single action trigger pull is UNSAFE in a handgun of any type and illegal in every sanctioned handgun competition venue. Third, while it's possible to reduce the single action trigger pull in a S&W revolver doing this requires BUTCHERING the trigger and will quickly lead to push off issues with the hammer. Those claims alone would have put an experienced S&W revolver fanatic off of purchasing this particular sample.

BTW, I suspect those particular claims of trigger weights would not be supported by actual measurements because many people are absolutely horrible at guessing a trigger weight by feel. However that description of "modifying" the mainspring leads me to suspect that this particular hack has simply ground the width down to reduce it's strength. He's also probably cut some coils off the rebound spring to reduce the SA trigger weight. Finally, I suspect that he's ground down the Strain Screw by a lot and this is causing the mainspring to "knuckle", which is a deformed shape that cause wild swings in trigger pull efforts and can cause the lockwork to jam. Hopefully this hack has NOT done any grinding on the trigger sear so that your trigger won't need replacement.

What you need is to have the Mainspring, Rebound Spring, and Strain Screws replaced. For the Mainspring and Strain Screw you'll want factory original parts. For the Rebound spring a Wolff 14 lbs. rebound spring will produce a 3 lbs. SA trigger break with reliable reset. Hopefully the trigger hasn't been butchered because if it has you'll probably need a new trigger. The factory mainspring will produce a 11-12 lbs. DA trigger with the strain screw at full length and fully snugged down. Good news is that filing 0.020 inch from the length of the strain screw will reduce the DA trigger pull down to a reliable 9.5 lbs with no other issues. BTW, that is light as I would recommend going with the DA trigger weight. Anytime you try and go lighter you get into areas where misfires become an issue and limit you ammunition selection to ONLY Federal primed ammunition's. BTW, Federal primers are nearly impossible to purchase currently. I'll also tell you that the difference between 8 and 9.5 lbs isn't nearly as large as it sounds.

If all this sounds like a bit too much, return the revolver or plan on spending about 300 dollars at S&W to have it put right.

 

[158Grain]

I'm concerned that he lightened the hammer twice. Seems like he was trying to make the list of modifications a little longer. Hope everything works out. Keep us posted.

 

[S.FL.686pro]

Welcome to the Forum! Can never have too many new members. You have wisely not disclosed the name of the business that did the 'work' on this gun. Do we even know this person is a gunsmith? Is he even licensed? Why would he discuss what he did with you, you were not his customer.

I am frankly amazed at the condition of the revolver that you describe. It definitely has to be examined by another 'smith. Perhaps the damage is so extensive that it has to be returned to S&W to bring its condition back to 'factory new,' even if you pay for the work. But somebody else qualified has to have a look at the gun. This is all I can offer here.

Thanks for the greeting, forums have always proven to be a wealth of knowledge and have good people.

Ya know, other than for the top of the paper saying "gunsmith his company, phone, and address" there is no proof of a license or any qualification. I am not too quick to blame a gunsmith, I have come across more owners doing ridiculous things but who knows. I hope he might discuss with me what he meant by "gun must be fully assembled" and maybe, if he remembers the work point me in the direction of what it could be.

I am amazed myself, I personally believe I took a hit on the trade and now this... I'm pretty disheartened. I have an appointment with a smith tomorrow hopefully is not in need of a full internal swap. Thanks for the reply

 

[S.FL.686pro]

First, a S&W revolver won't FIRE a cartridge with a 4 pound DA trigger pull, a minimum of about 7 pounds is required to provide enough energy to ignite the primer. Second, a 1 pound single action trigger pull is UNSAFE in a handgun of any type and illegal in every sanctioned handgun competition venue. Third, while it's possible to reduce the single action trigger pull in a S&W revolver doing this requires BUTCHERING the trigger and will quickly lead to push off issues with the hammer. Those claims alone would have put an experienced S&W revolver fanatic off of purchasing this particular sample.

BTW, I suspect those particular claims of trigger weights would not be supported by actual measurements because many people are absolutely horrible at guessing a trigger weight by feel. However that description of "modifying" the mainspring leads me to suspect that this particular hack has simply ground the width down to reduce it's strength. He's also probably cut some coils off the rebound spring to reduce the SA trigger weight. Finally, I suspect that he's ground down the Strain Screw by a lot and this is causing the mainspring to "knuckle", which is a deformed shape that cause wild swings in trigger pull efforts and can cause the lockwork to jam. Hopefully this hack has NOT done any grinding on the trigger sear so that your trigger won't need replacement.

What you need is to have the Mainspring, Rebound Spring, and Strain Screws replaced. For the Mainspring and Strain Screw you'll want factory original parts. For the Rebound spring a Wolff 14 lbs. rebound spring will produce a 3 lbs. SA trigger break with reliable reset. Hopefully the trigger hasn't been butchered because if it has you'll probably need a new trigger. The factory mainspring will produce a 11-12 lbs. DA trigger with the strain screw at full length and fully snugged down. Good news is that filing 0.020 inch from the length of the strain screw will reduce the DA trigger pull down to a reliable 9.5 lbs with no other issues. BTW, that is light as I would recommend going with the DA trigger weight. Anytime you try and go lighter you get into areas where misfires become an issue and limit you ammunition selection to ONLY Federal primed ammunition's. BTW, Federal primers are nearly impossible to purchase currently. I'll also tell you that the difference between 8 and 9.5 lbs isn't nearly as large as it sounds.

If all this sounds like a bit too much, return the revolver or plan on spending about 300 dollars at S&W to have it put right.

Thanks for the info and passion. Sure wished I would have known that going into it all. I was fascinated by the idea of having a Jerry Miculeck weight trigger. I did test the push off and when it work it locked back and would not be budged.

Thank you for all possible assessments. Would you recommend me taking apart the firearm and assessing if it could be any of the referenced or, should I leave it in the current condition so the gunsmith could see it in the exact problematic configuration?

 

[smike308]

Congrats on the new gun, hopefully you get the issues sorted out soon. You have recieved some good advice so far. I would add to those suggestions that you clean under the extractor star. Both the underside of the star and the cylinder underneath the star. It sounds like you may have some unburned powder or other debris underneath the extractor star. That can cause the difficult trigger pull and difficulty opening the cylinder you describe. Sometimes it only takes a kernel or two of unburned powder to really muck up the function of an otherwise reliable revolver. Assuming that is a contributing factor to some of your difficulties, I would suggest(if you are not already doing so) that when unloading, you make sure that you have the muzzle pointed up. This will help to prevent unburned powder and other debris from collecting under the star. Also, keep the area under the star dry and free of oil. Good luck.

 

[scooter123]

If you are taking it to another gunsmith I would leave it just as it is. It will allow him to do a thorough examination and determine what will be needed to correct it.

BTW, I expect that the trigger that Jerry Miculek actually shoots with is a trigger that you would consider quite heavy. At a guess I would say Jerry sets his triggers up with a double action weight in the 12 to 14 pound range. As for why I believe this, it's a matter of the rate of fire he is able to achieve. Keep in mind that it's the springs that RETURN the trigger and hammer to the rest position and weaker springs will act to slow the return motion of these components. When your firing rate in double action is running about 720 rounds per minute you need to use springs that allow this firing rate to be achieved. BTW, I also suspect that Jerry can probably curl 40 or 50 lbs. with his trigger finger and I would be rather hesitant to shake his hand because I'll bet his grip is about as strong as a Bench Vise.

Final notes.

First, if you want to tinker with these revolvers you need to consider the acquisition of the S&W Shop Manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen an absolute must.

Brownell's often has this manual in stock. Second, good sources of parts are Brownell's and Numrich's as primary with Midway being a secondary source on some items. Personally I get all my handgun parts from the first two and use Midway primarily as a source for reloading equipment and components.

Third, the Rebound Spring can be installed in the rebound slide using a Philips Head screwdriver by some but I've never had the patience to attempt it. I expect the learning curve to do this is quite steep and you'll spend hours looking for springs that went Boing into unseen regions. Tip here is to make sure you get a proper Rebound Spring Tool to make this installation task somewhat simple. BTW, got mine at Brownell's.

Finally there are lots and lots of knowledgeable and helpful people here who will answer almost any question. If you get stuck on something just ask.

 

[S.FL.686pro]

Hey guy's,

Just giving you a quick update on the SW in case ya'll were still interested.

The gun is still at the smith, I have had to re-order all new internal parts. The Hammer Block was missing and hammer was unusable. Also the gun had been "re-timed" but was out of time. All in all it is a F***in mess and lets not even talk about the bill. Thanks for all of your help and time you took in replying to my thread. It is much appreciated and am looking forwards to staying with the forum

Lesson learned.

 

[Rpg]

First, a S&W revolver won't FIRE a cartridge with a 4 pound DA trigger pull, a minimum of about 7 pounds is required to provide enough energy to ignite the primer. Second, a 1 pound single action trigger pull is UNSAFE in a handgun of any type and illegal in every sanctioned handgun competition venue. Third, while it's possible to reduce the single action trigger pull in a S&W revolver doing this requires BUTCHERING the trigger and will quickly lead to push off issues with the hammer. Those claims alone would have put an experienced S&W revolver fanatic off of purchasing this particular sample.

BTW, I suspect those particular claims of trigger weights would not be supported by actual measurements because many people are absolutely horrible at guessing a trigger weight by feel. However that description of "modifying" the mainspring leads me to suspect that this particular hack has simply ground the width down to reduce it's strength. He's also probably cut some coils off the rebound spring to reduce the SA trigger weight. Finally, I suspect that he's ground down the Strain Screw by a lot and this is causing the mainspring to "knuckle", which is a deformed shape that cause wild swings in trigger pull efforts and can cause the lockwork to jam. Hopefully this hack has NOT done any grinding on the trigger sear so that your trigger won't need replacement.

What you need is to have the Mainspring, Rebound Spring, and Strain Screws replaced. For the Mainspring and Strain Screw you'll want factory original parts. For the Rebound spring a Wolff 14 lbs. rebound spring will produce a 3 lbs. SA trigger break with reliable reset. Hopefully the trigger hasn't been butchered because if it has you'll probably need a new trigger. The factory mainspring will produce a 11-12 lbs. DA trigger with the strain screw at full length and fully snugged down. Good news is that filing 0.020 inch from the length of the strain screw will reduce the DA trigger pull down to a reliable 9.5 lbs with no other issues. BTW, that is light as I would recommend going with the DA trigger weight. Anytime you try and go lighter you get into areas where misfires become an issue and limit you ammunition selection to ONLY Federal primed ammunition's. BTW, Federal primers are nearly impossible to purchase currently. I'll also tell you that the difference between 8 and 9.5 lbs isn't nearly as large as it sounds.

If all this sounds like a bit too much, return the revolver or plan on spending about 300 dollars at S&W to have it put right.

Scooter is absolutely correct: you have a buba trigger job.

You need new parts and a smith who knows what he's doing. It may not take less time than sending it to Smith, but it will be cheaper if you find a competent Gunsmith within driving distance. (Not the guy at the big box store)

S&W shipping for non warranty work runs in the hundreds of dollars.

 

[silvershot]

This part of my reply is not at the OP but at two things I notice many Smith fans are doing.

One, these Pro Series and Performance Center S&Ws. Why? I've shot original S&Ws and the Pro and Performance ones and I just don't get the draw of them. Get a regular Smith and be done with it.

Second, trigger job on a S&W? I really don't get that one. DO NOT do trigger jobs or buy S&Ws with trigger jobs already done. There is absolutely no reason for them on S&Ws. Once you start messing with the sear, spring weights and different depths of filing and polishing of trigger components you degrade your revolver as a whole.

As to the OPs issue it's obvious that gsmith took on a job he had no business doing. Many gsmiths won't even do trigger jobs but the ones that do only a few are actually good at it. If you ever need the best revolver trigger job a gsmith could do send your gun to Lauer Weaponry in Chippewa Falls, WI. and have Greg do it. I have had a few Taurus titanium's and Rugers that actually needed trigger jobs, and the work he did was perfection.

I think my main point here would be, S&Ws do not need trigger jobs.

I love how the gsmith notes "use quality ammo with proper pistol type primers" as if he knows something is going to go wrong. And note #2 I just don't get.

 

[Sherminator]

...One, these Pro Series and Performance Center S&Ws. Why? I've shot original S&Ws and the Pro and Performance ones and I just don't get the draw of them. Get a regular Smith and be done with it...

Well, I bought my 686 PC Light Hunter because I liked it. Bought my 627 Pro because I liked it too, a LOT. Sometimes people buy things because they want to or can only get exactly what they want from the PC. There's nothing wrong at all with the normal "run of the mill" S&W revolvers, but I happen to like the slab side barreled guns.

Also, people do trigger jobs because, you guessed it, they want to. Can I pull a 14# DA all day long? You bet. Can my wife? Probably not... Not everybody has the same taste in guns, and not everybody has Popeye forearms either.