870 Wood Stain Expertise

[SW CQB 45]

A few months back, I had the opportunity to purchase a couple of older police dept 870s, one being a very clean blue Wingmaster #T538xxxx with a 18" barrel and clean wood with long forend. I also bought a blue 28" 870 vent rib barrel.

I was given a rough scrap set wood that I had cut 1" and fitted a recoil pad. I planned to stain this wood ebony but decided to go another route.

I want to get as close to what I have on the gun right now as this gun is for a small framed teen and want to utilize the short stock and the current long forend.

it appears the stock and forend on the gun are not an exact match and I am ok with that, but I want to get my loaner wood close.

I was at Home Depot today and all they had was MinWax. Little disappointed in the selection. Anyway the employee saw the images and said I had a honey colored stock however MinWax Honey was dark on the stain image on the can. They also had a color called Gunstock 231 which the employee argued that was too red.

Anyway, I decided to wait and look around more for a closer color match (again not looking for perfect....just close)

can anyone provide a direction on stain brand and color if you have tackled a project like this before...I would appreciate it.

I am no stain expert but I did sand off some sheen and stain to get the loaner wood to this point. if I need to veer away from MinWax....and you have something else in mind....please let me know.

thanks in advance

you can click on these MinWax images
http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...i=11pbaksq5&.crumb=yRhQ2v3P.R1&fr=yfp-t-900-s

 

[arjay]

I've used both of those stains and the gunstock is a bit on the red side but I liked the result on a birch stock.The replacement stock looks very blotchy and any kind of stain will hi light that.

 

[SW CQB 45]

I've used both of those stains and the gunstock is a bit on the red side but I liked the result on a birch stock.The replacement stock looks very blotchy and any kind of stain will hi light that.

thanks for the info.

do you think additional sanding would help to minimize blotchy?

I think this was Police 870 wood that was rough and is not the same grain as the current Wingmaster wood.

 

[GaryS]

I refinished an ex police 870 a couple of years ago. I sanded the wood down and then just used boiled linseed oil to refinish it. I redid an Ithaca 87 stock earlier this year and did the same. A lot of long guns are finished with BLO. I think all Enfields were originally done that way.

 

[arjay]

I'm thinking the original wing master stock is walnut and the replacement is birch or beech.Id try a solvent( acetone and or mineral spirits)soaked rag first and see if some of the color will pull out.Factory finishes usually just lay on the surface.Follow with a light sanding(if needed) with a fine grit paper,say 400 grit to start.Maybe 200 if that doesn't work.Stripper will always work too.

 

[SW CQB 45]

I refinished an ex police 870 a couple of years ago. I sanded the wood down and then just used boiled linseed oil to refinish it. I redid an Ithaca 87 stock earlier this year and did the same. A lot of long guns are finished with BLO. I think all Enfields were originally done that way.

do you have any images of your BLO finish?

using BLO, is any protection required over the top?

 

[SW CQB 45]

I'm thinking the original wing master stock is walnut and the replacement is birch or beech.Id try a solvent( acetone and or mineral spirits)soaked rag first and see if some of the color will pull out.Factory finishes usually just lay on the surface.Follow with a light sanding(if needed) with a fine grit paper,say 400 grit to start.Maybe 200 if that doesn't work.Stripper will always work too.

thanks for the info.

I will trying the solvent method first to try and minimize the stain in the wood.

I think you are correct on the police wood being birch.

 

[Frank46]

There is a product that I believe is called wood conditioner. What it does is it allows the wood to take the stain evenly rather than a blotchy stain encountered when doing either birch or beech stocks. It will also work on walnut stocks as well. I believe you brush it on with a paint brush or even an old T shirt then apply the stain. I once did one of the M1 garand stocks some years ago and it was either birch or beech. When sanded down either wood has almost no grain pattern. Oil based and water based stains on this stock looked horrible. Finally used an alcohol based stain. While the stain did not evenly penetrate all the wood fibers, the stock was a "looker" and drew many favorable comments. Frank

 

[sheepdawg]

You can make your own wood conditioner for staining by mixing 1 part sanding sealer to 2 parts paint thinner. Just brush it on and let it dry. Your birch does look blotchy. Try a good wipe down with lacquer thinner. If that doesn't help you might try bleaching your wood with some Clorox. Rinse it real good afterward and sand with 280A. Wipe it down with thinner and then brush your conditioner on.

Any commercial paint store should be able to match stain. Just bring the color you desire and a piece of the wood to be stained. Forget the morons at Home depot and Minwax stain just plain sux.

 

[2152hq]

Birch, beech, maple, sycamore or any of the light colored hardwoods used for gunstocks do not generally take oil based stains well.
The grain is too dense,,too tightly packed together to allow the oil stain (which is a suspended particle stain like mud) to penetrate the wood evenly or at all.
That's why the poor color and blotchy look when oil stains are tried on those woods.

You can open the pores a little with wood bleach. It's sold under that name. It's actually oxalic acid.
Mix a couple or 3 tbs per quart of water. Warm it in the microwave for about 40sec and apply it w/a paint brush. Do this in a wash tub or someplace that you can then rinse it clean with clear water. It'll sting your skin,,it's an acid but a weak one. Protect your eyes. It'll lighten up and even out the wood color. You can use it on anything including walnut. Makes for a better starting point with any stain.

I wouldn't recommend laundry bleach. It'll lighten up the wood, but the chemical in it that does the trick is sodium hypochlorite.
It's very corrosive to metal and you'll never rinse it completely from the wood.
Humid condition later on will cause contact rusting to any metal parts of the gun. Very bad rusting that looks like salt cured wood in some cases.
A trick in restoration is to use laundry bleach & heat to etch gun metal so it looks old. That'll give you an idea on how corrosive it is.

The best way to deal with these types of wood are alchohol or other solvent based stains.
Unlike the oil stain with it's suspended particles of ground pigment that are too big to penetrate the pores,, solvent stains are a colored liquid,,like a glass of wine.
They are the same color all the way through and can penetrate and carry that color into anything that is absorbant.

Leather dyes are solvent based stains and are often used in wood work also.

You keep adding stain till the color you want is achieved. Too dark,,and you wipe the surface with a cloth wet with the solvent used in the stain to draw some out.
You can use several stains over the top of each other to change colors.

They dry very quickly, but I still wait over night before applying a finish.

Laurel Mountain makes one of the better gun stock solvent based stains in several colors.
You can usually by alcohol based stains in powdered form to mix yourself at artist supply and high end woodshop/finishing places.
I don't know if the DYI places sell such stuff now.

On Walnut I've used both alcohol and oil stain on the same piece a number of times to get the right look. Solvent stains first.
But with the hardwoods like maple and birch, it's usually just the solvent based stains to get what you want. Sometimes one final coating of oil based stain to give a better color tone to match an existing piece works well.

There's no one way to do these projects. You just have to try all the tricks you have in getting the right color. Sometimes it's a color you like. Sometimes it's one that has to match another piece like an existing forend.

You have to allow for color change that the final finish will make also if you are matching up pieces.

I'd use some form of a varnish finish over the stain. Even if it's just a thinned out varnish applied in several coats and scuffed down between them.
You need something to protect the surface and linseed oil won't do it. After a varnish (and it can be tung oil based, or linseed oil based,,modern poly based,,what ever...) then lightly scuff it down to remove any imperfections in it from dust particles ect.
No need to go to the extent of filling all the pores and leveling the wood surface like a custom rifle,,unless you want to of course.

Then an extremely light coating of boiled linseed rubbed out to what feels like nothing and allowed to dry will enhance the looks tremendously.

Added coats like the first are fine but don't apply till the one on the stock is completely dry.
Linseed takes a long time to dry and it will not protect against moisture. That's why you need something under it that will.
It looks nice though.

Just some thoughts...

 

[Gunslinger808]

Sand it, stain it, varnish it.
I think too many people get caught up in the "This Old House" mentality.
Me, I like darker wood so I tend to finish other folk's firearms the same unless the specify.
I use Cabot or Behr which both work well, Minwax really isn't that bad, but some folks just have a problem with it.
Best bet is to go to a specialty store that sells unfinished furniture, they tend to have a better selection of stains and finishes than most chain outlets like Lowe's or Home Depot.
I don't think your wood is too different to come out looking the same with a good stain job.
Sand, stain, buff, and restain prior to varnish and it'll be a real close match.

ETA:
Some finishes you can never match, varnish like an older bluing or parkerizing will gain a patina over the years that are impossible to recreate.
You can come close, but it'll not be an exact match.
Here's an old single shot shotgun I did last year.
Before:

After:

 

[Rastoff]

Just a note. Those are two completely different types of wood. The Wimgmaster is made from American Walnut and the stock you have stripped is Birch.

Because Remington used an oil based coating on the Wimgmaster, it has yellowed a bit over time. This has the effect of making it a little more toward the red color. It will be tough to match.

 

[SW CQB 45]

thanks to everyone for the responses.

I am no "woodologist" but you all have opened my eyes that different wood characteristics and wood type will be almost impossible to match.

at our department, I recently traded in a bunch of old sitting around equipment to be part of new Colt AR15 purchase. there were many brand new 870 Police take off wood stocks. These stocks lacked sheen and I recall them having a different wood stain from my Wingmaster wood.

I will just do my best to prep, minimize any potential splotchiness and get a close stain match and just live with it. of course follow up with some type of sheen to protect the wood.

not looking for show quality....just want it to look decent.

thanks again

 

[sheepdawg]

I've been using Clorox to bleach wood for nearly 40 years. the trick is in the rinsing and neutralizing with water and thinner. I would expect all metal parts would be removed before bleaching.

2152hq said he wouldn't recommend laundry bleach. Just be careful with commercial wood bleaches. The ones containing oxolic acid are the same ones you would clean a wood deck with, they are OK. There are others that should only be used by a professional. They are corrosive to you. Commercial wood bleach is far more dangerous than using Clorox, read the MSDS sheets. I find Clorox does the job and costs far less to boot.

http://www.wmbarr.com/ProductFiles/4083.pdf

http://www.wmbarr.com/ProductFiles/409 2 KS Wood Bleach Part B 2-28-12.pdf

 

[GaryS]

do you have any images of your BLO finish?

using BLO, is any protection required over the top?

Here are some pictures I just took. If you need higher quality, let me know.

This is an Ithaca that I ended up sanding so I could fit a butt plate.

Here is the 870 I mentioned. I have to sand down the butt end of this to get a better fit on the recoil pad. After that I'll refinish it with BLO.

I think these came out pretty good all things considered.

 

[Rastoff]

You know, the 870 is the most prolific shotgun on the planet. Stocks are common and inexpensive. Have you tried to buy a new one? I got one for $25 once.

Go on Shotgunworld.com and ask. I'm sure someone there has one.

 

[2152hq]

I've been using Clorox to bleach wood for nearly 40 years. the trick is in the rinsing and neutralizing with water and thinner. I would expect all metal parts would be removed before bleaching.

2152hq said he wouldn't recommend laundry bleach. Just be careful with commercial wood bleaches. The ones containing oxolic acid are the same ones you would clean a wood deck with, they are OK. There are others that should only be used by a professional. They are corrosive to you. Commercial wood bleach is far more dangerous than using Clorox, read the MSDS sheets. I find Clorox does the job and costs far less to boot.

http://www.wmbarr.com/ProductFiles/4083.pdf

http://www.wmbarr.com/ProductFiles/409 2 KS Wood Bleach Part B 2-28-12.pdf

The wood bleach product in the link is nothing more than lye. I wouldn't use than on wood either.
But it's always been a quicky way to lighten wood and remove surface oil & grease.
The Milsurp folks still use it quite often (oven cleaner). Always a hazard to work with. The second part of it is nothing more than hydrogen peroxide. An attempt to neutralize it (?) and also further bleach the wood.
Not on any stock wood I'm working on!

The Oxalic acid wood bleach I refer to is sold in Home improvement stores in the paint section. Most common brand around I see is 'Savogran'. Cheap at about $6 a plastic quart bucket of crystals.
You only mix 2 or 3 tbs per quart of water and brush the stuff on. Cap it and reuse. Lasts a long time.
Price really isn't a factor either way, these stocks are small items anyway.
No hydrogen peroxide,,no lye content. Just oxalic acid as it's MSDS sheet says.

Don't eat or drink the stuff and you'll be fine. It's a very mild acidic soln you're making. No more dangerous to handle than laundry bleach.
You protect your eyes when handling any of this stuff.

I just don't like laundry bleach around gun metal. I've seen some bad results both in metal to wood contact,,and the well intentioned washing of dirty and perhaps musty smelling gun cases when a touch of laundry bleach was added to kill the mold.
Firearms stored in those laundered case where bleach was used have an excellent chance of extensive pitting and rust.

If you get good results with it that's fine. There's always more than one way to do things. I've had others tell me it works well too.

But I can't chance, even once, bleaching out a customers Parker, Purdey or G&H stock with laundry bleach.
It's a zero scrap business and I've seen some of what can result.
Wood bleach works on wood w/o any problems for me..

Just my take on it.
Always room for others opinions and experience though..

 

[sheepdawg]

Learned about Clorox while redoing golf clubs back in the 70s, you know back when they were made of wood. They take a lot of abuse and I never had a problem.

Oxalic acid is some good stuff for sure. You ought to see what a 100 year old glass telegraph insulator looks like after a one week bath in it.