9mm Black Talons

[zonker5]

I came across a box of 9mm Black Talons at an estate sale. Are these of any interest to a collector or should I load them in my EDC and be happy?

 

[Birdhunter6]

I have BTs on the shelf in 9, .357 and .45. I'm loading current production Federal and Hornady these days. I'm also curious about collector interest.

 

[DWalt]

There is a story about them. I don't remember the details, but they were used in a San Francisco mass shooting in 1993, and they generated a load of bad publicity for Winchester (among other reasons, for having "Black" in their name). I believe in the wake of that incident, Winchester changed the name to "Ranger" and dropped the black jacket coloring. I imagine there could be some collector interest for a full box, but I have no idea how much.

 

[tlawler]

A quick check of gb completed auctions shows prices from $3 to over $6 per round, but then someone sold a few boxes here recently in the classifieds for only $25 per box of 20.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/access...d-ammo-estate-sale.html?677475=#post141464151

 

[lrrifleman]

Lore has it that the Black Talons were referred to differently on the street, and that medical professionals took issue with the devastating wounds inflicted by the Black Talon projectiles. Personally, I would consider the medical professional complaints as an endorsement of the rounds' effectiveness.

I have a box or two in 9mm, which I would carry without hesitation! But then, I also have a box of 41 Magnum Silvertips!

I would say carry them in pursuit of good health!

 

[Skeet 028]

I have had quite a few boxes of BTs in the past and they mostly sold pretty well at a premium...but these days they don't seem to interest newer shooters who don't know the history. Some collectors interest. There does happen to be some interest in the 9s that were sold for police use. They were BTs but in brass cases instead of nickeled cases. I just have a few examples left from 20 boxes. They were purchased from a police officer who had issue ammo left when his agency went to the 40. I remember the boxes were marked for LE use only. I was also told by a factory rep that the newer silver tip ammo is the same as BT except for the coating on the bullet itself. Who knows??

 

[Krogen]

Black Talons don't just mushroom, but their jackets peel back and create "petals" that curl outward. Hence the "Talon" moniker. I fired a few into water-filled milk jugs years ago and confirmed they do this.

There was quite a dust-up about these rounds at the time. According to some sources, the spinning petals create more tissue damage. Black Talons didn't stick around for long before being discontinued.

I have read that Ranger T is the same ammo but cosmetically more acceptable; whatever that means. Presumably the name Ranger T is less controversial than Black Talon. I have never fired any Ranger T ammo, so I don't know if they have the "petals" associated with Black Talon or use more conventional jackets.

 

[roscoepc]

I did some reading about the Black Talon round a few years back. Here's a Wiki article that reads about the same as the info I read back then... Black Talon - Wikipedia

 

[ArchAngelCD]

....
I have read that Ranger T is the same ammo but cosmetically more acceptable; whatever that means. Presumably the name Ranger T is less controversial than Black Talon. I have never fired any Ranger T ammo, so I don't know if they have the "petals" associated with Black Talon or use more conventional jackets.

I have also read the Ranger T ammo is the same as the BT ammo without the black coating. They are devastating according to all reports.

Someone above mentioned the Silvertip ammo, I don't think they have anything to do with BT ammo.

 

[Charlie Foxtrott]

Interestingly enough.

A lot of all the bad press that surrounded these rounds came from the medical profession. These came on the market just about the time that the big crack wars of the late eighties and early nineties started to get out of control.
These being the big force that also drove the big Clinton crime bill.
Well this just also happened to coincide with the AIDS virus looming large across the country. And nobody more than medical professionals were more aware of this. Treatments for this were still in the stage of infancy. And medical professionals, surgeons etc. That were tasked with treating gunshot victims that were often shot with these projectiles found themselves in a position where their rubber gloves would get pierced by the "petals" of these bullets. And subsequently exposing them to the AIDs virus.

 

[Krogen]

Here's a pretty decent video about Black Talon and Ranger T:

Winchester Black Talon vs. T-Series! 1992 Bullet Tech Compared to Today - YouTube

 

[rockquarry]

A lot of all the bad press that surrounded these rounds came from the medical profession. These came on the market just about the time that the big crack wars of the late eighties and early nineties started to get out of control.
These being the big force that also drove the big Clinton crime bill.
Well this just also happened to coincide with the AIDS virus looming large across the country. And nobody more than medical professionals were more aware of this. Treatments for this were still in the stage of infancy. And medical professionals, surgeons etc. That were tasked with treating gunshot victims that were often shot with these projectiles found themselves in a position where their rubber gloves would get pierced by the "petals" of these bullets. And subsequently exposing them to the AIDs virus.

There was a segment on "20/20" years ago that mentioned the potential danger confronted by surgeons when removing these bullets with the very jagged edges. I guess the Black Talon name change soon followed.

 

[Old Corp]

BT's are an example of pure marketing genius as well as bad judgement.

Starting to fade now, but for a time ANY caliber BT's held near Urban-Legend status.
Somehow got confused with "cop killer" bullets that were being covered a lot in the media at the time. No relation whatsoever.

Technology has moved on in pistol-caliber controlled expansion JHP's.
While BT's were certainly better performers than what came before, there's nothing magical about them.

Working behind a LGS counter some, it was a little hard not to do an eye-roll when some hard-charging nimrod would exclaim far and wide that the ONLY ammo his SD guns see is the super-deadly Black Talons!

 

[s&wchad]

Black Talon ammo does bring a premium. Full boxes were selling for $50 or more, before the current ammo shortage. I recommending saving them.

I’ve stashed a few boxes away over the years.

 

[IAM Rand]

Um, aren't the Ranger STX pretty much the same thing except without the black???

Not sure that the color of the bullet makes a difference. If so, I am going to start to paint mine pink.

 

[martyd]

I have a 2 page Word Document which has a brief history of the Black Talon Ammunition.

There is a lot of Mystic around Black Talon, most of which is Urban Legend and has been, shell we say, expanded a bit

"A Brief History of Winchester Black Talon Ammunition
October 7, 2020 - The Gear Bunker"

You can search for it on the internet.
or
Shoot me a PM and I will email it to you.

Gun shows in Arizona almost always some Black Talon in various calibers, usually with a price of $80++/box.

 

[SmithNut]

Black Talon ammo does bring a premium. Full boxes were selling for $50 or more, before the current ammo shortage. I recommending saving them.

I’ve stashed a few boxes away over the years.

And the Super Vel ammo is very collectible also....

Nice stash...

 

[KAC]

Um, aren't the Ranger STX pretty much the same thing except without the black???

Not sure that the color of the bullet makes a difference. If so, I am going to start to paint mine pink.

Actually the Ranger is SXT, which I am told stands for Same eXact Thing.

 

[colt_saa]

I have some Black Talon left over from those days

The issue was two fold, the NAACP and other such organizations claimed that by calling the product Black Talon, Winchester was telling people that it was for shooting black people. This is kind of like the lawsuit against the FBI claiming that by using black B27 targets the Bureau was training the agents to shoot black people.

The second issue is the wicked look of an expanded Black Talon projectile.

Image courtesy of Crafted Ballistics​

After the ammunition was used in a shooting or two, several Doctors (not from those cases) hit the Television Media outlets calling the projectile a FLYING BUZZ SAW

These two issues caused increasing tension for Winchester and they announced the voluntary withdrawal of Black Talon from the market.

The Cop Killer moniker was not a consequential factor in the Black Talon Saga

Shortly after all this drama started, Winchester introduced the SXT (Supreme eXpansion Talon) ammunition to the Public. This was the same projectile in the same nickel plated case in amazing similar black boxes with the only difference being that the projectile was now coated in gold instead of black. Winchester eventually changed the word Talon to Technology when advertising or discussing the projectile. This solved the last of the Public Relations crisis

Before Winchester released SXT, the Ranger line for Law Enforcement appeared. This was the same old black projectile loaded into brass cases. This may have just been a way to use up all of the projectiles that were already black since today's Ranger SXT uses the gold colored projectile.

A round that I really liked, the 357 Magnum Black Talon loading was lost in the transition. It was a 180 grain projectile that ran right at 1100 FPS from a 4" revolver and hit more than 1525 FPS from a 16" (18" ?) lever action, I can't recall which lever I chronographed it from. This projectile was never moved to a different line of ammunition

 

[cmj8591]

Whatever value they may have will be gone once you shoot them.