-
Forum Update: We've upgraded the software to improve security, performance, and the overall experience.
👉 Read why we made the change | Support the Forum
9mm difference
- Thread starter hung-up
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
carpriver
US Veteran
same stuff, the brass may be a bit thicker. If you reload the prime pocket will need to reamed to remove the primer crimp.
Yup. What they said.
9 mm Luger=9 x19 mm= 9 mm Parabellum. All the NATO means is that it's the 9 x 19 mm handgun cartridge that meets the various NATO military specifications for bullet weight, energy, penetration, moisture proofing, chamber pressure, etc.
I saw a summary specification document looooong ago. It gave a range of acceptable bullet weights and a minimum energy requirement. Most of what we see in the US is 124 gr at a nominal 1200 f/s.
I saw a summary specification document looooong ago. It gave a range of acceptable bullet weights and a minimum energy requirement. Most of what we see in the US is 124 gr at a nominal 1200 f/s.
Last edited:
If anything,,,
,,,,the Nato rounds can lean toward hot because the main purpose is combat and I would suppose that they are FMJ rounds as per conventions. You probably don't find too many hollow points, practice rounds or Talons in NATO labeled ammo.
As far as size goes, like said before they are not only interchangeable, they are the same thing.
,,,,the Nato rounds can lean toward hot because the main purpose is combat and I would suppose that they are FMJ rounds as per conventions. You probably don't find too many hollow points, practice rounds or Talons in NATO labeled ammo.
As far as size goes, like said before they are not only interchangeable, they are the same thing.
Last edited:
If anything,,,
,,,,the Nato rounds can lean toward hot because the main purpose is combat and I would suppose that they are FMJ rounds as per conventions. You probably don't find too many hollow points or Talons in NATO ammo.
As far as size goes, like said before they are not only interchangeable, they are the same thing. So it the 9mm Parabellum.
From WIKI:
9 mm NATO can be considered an overpressure variant of the 9×19mm Parabellum that is defined by NATO standards.[26] The service pressure Pmax of the 9 mm NATO is rated at 252 MPa (36,500 psi) where CIP rates the 9mm Luger Pmax somewhat lower at 235 MPa (34,100 psi). The 315 MPa (45,700 psi) proofing test pressure used in the NATO 9mm proof test, however, equals the proofing test pressure used in the 9mm Luger CIP proof test.
There is also a small difference between the SAAMI and the C.I.P. allowable pressures.
I don't know if a NATO round is basically a +P round and vice verse.
,,,,the Nato rounds can lean toward hot because the main purpose is combat and I would suppose that they are FMJ rounds as per conventions. You probably don't find too many hollow points or Talons in NATO ammo.
As far as size goes, like said before they are not only interchangeable, they are the same thing. So it the 9mm Parabellum.
From WIKI:
9 mm NATO can be considered an overpressure variant of the 9×19mm Parabellum that is defined by NATO standards.[26] The service pressure Pmax of the 9 mm NATO is rated at 252 MPa (36,500 psi) where CIP rates the 9mm Luger Pmax somewhat lower at 235 MPa (34,100 psi). The 315 MPa (45,700 psi) proofing test pressure used in the NATO 9mm proof test, however, equals the proofing test pressure used in the 9mm Luger CIP proof test.
There is also a small difference between the SAAMI and the C.I.P. allowable pressures.
I don't know if a NATO round is basically a +P round and vice verse.
Last edited:
SAAMI MAP (maximum average pressure) specs for 9 x 19 mm is 35,000 psi for standard, 38,500 psi for +P. However, SAAMI and CIP measure the pressures differently, but both use a piezo-electric transducer. Because of the differences, it's hard to say exactly how they compare, saying NATO spec is +P is a reasonable generalization.
One thing to remember: the figures noted here and above are maximums. Most ammo manufacturers are loading to a velocity specification within acceptable pressures. Just because they can load to a higher pressure doesn't mean they do. Back in the day (and in some current price point ammo) US loaded 9 mm was down loaded (SAAMI MAP 33,000 cup- a lot of ammo manufacturers didn't get close). European 9 mm was notably hotter.
One thing to remember: the figures noted here and above are maximums. Most ammo manufacturers are loading to a velocity specification within acceptable pressures. Just because they can load to a higher pressure doesn't mean they do. Back in the day (and in some current price point ammo) US loaded 9 mm was down loaded (SAAMI MAP 33,000 cup- a lot of ammo manufacturers didn't get close). European 9 mm was notably hotter.
Last edited:
DWalt
Member
NATO means only that the ammunition meets NATO specifications. The current US 9mm military round is called the M882, and is loaded with a 124 grain FMJ bullet. My personal chronograph measurements of the M882 round indicate that it has an average MV from a 5" barrel (M9 pistol) of approximately 1175 ft/sec.
For some years only Winchester has produced the M882 US military round at East Alton under military contract. The specs are as follows:
9mm NATO 124 MC M882 Specs: MIL-C-70508
Velocity = 1230+/-49 fps average @ 52.5’ from muzzle (7.848" test barrel).
Chamber Pressure = 34,519 psi max. average
Winchester Lot Acceptance Test:
Velocity average over the last 5 lots tested 1249 fps max. (7.848" test barrel).
Avg Max. Chamber pressure not to exceed 32,783 psi
My understanding is that NATO specs also allow the use of a 115 grain bullet and some European armies use that bullet weight.
I have been told that the reason a 7.848" test barrel is used is to simulate use in a submachine gun.
Apparently Winchester will be getting the contract (if that has not already happened) for production of the new 9x19mm XM1152 Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) and XM1153 Special Purpose (SP) ammunition and training rounds for the XM17 SIG 9mm military pistol. From what I have been told, the XM1153 round is very similar to the Winchester Black Talon. The former concerns about using expanding bullets as a violation of the Hague Convention are now out the window. And good riddance.
For some years only Winchester has produced the M882 US military round at East Alton under military contract. The specs are as follows:
9mm NATO 124 MC M882 Specs: MIL-C-70508
Velocity = 1230+/-49 fps average @ 52.5’ from muzzle (7.848" test barrel).
Chamber Pressure = 34,519 psi max. average
Winchester Lot Acceptance Test:
Velocity average over the last 5 lots tested 1249 fps max. (7.848" test barrel).
Avg Max. Chamber pressure not to exceed 32,783 psi
My understanding is that NATO specs also allow the use of a 115 grain bullet and some European armies use that bullet weight.
I have been told that the reason a 7.848" test barrel is used is to simulate use in a submachine gun.
Apparently Winchester will be getting the contract (if that has not already happened) for production of the new 9x19mm XM1152 Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) and XM1153 Special Purpose (SP) ammunition and training rounds for the XM17 SIG 9mm military pistol. From what I have been told, the XM1153 round is very similar to the Winchester Black Talon. The former concerns about using expanding bullets as a violation of the Hague Convention are now out the window. And good riddance.
Last edited:
What DWalt said......
One of these days I'll shoot some of my 9mm NATO and compare it to standard 9mm range ammo. We shall see.....
Side note - NATO likes metrics, not English measurements so......:
7.62 NATO = .308
5.56 NATO = .223
9mm NATO = 9mm Parabellum/9x19/9mm Luger (always in metrics for some reason but it is basically pretty close to .357 caliber, just a tad less)
Not all of the rifle ammunition is interchangeable due to pressure differences. I am merely showing you a quick summary of how NATO's nomenclature works.
One of these days I'll shoot some of my 9mm NATO and compare it to standard 9mm range ammo. We shall see.....
Side note - NATO likes metrics, not English measurements so......:
7.62 NATO = .308
5.56 NATO = .223
9mm NATO = 9mm Parabellum/9x19/9mm Luger (always in metrics for some reason but it is basically pretty close to .357 caliber, just a tad less)
Not all of the rifle ammunition is interchangeable due to pressure differences. I am merely showing you a quick summary of how NATO's nomenclature works.
Last edited:
Rock185
US Veteran
FWIW, I've used thousands of rounds of Winchester 9MM NATO and various brands of commercial ball ammo interchangeably for years in semi-auto pistols, revolvers and carbines. Chronographing the Winchester NATO in a variety of firearms showed that, while it is a little warmer than some US commercial ammo, it does not equal the velocity of most 124 +P ammo I've tested.
For example: Winchester 9MM NATO tested in a 5" barrel averaged 1206 FPS. Federal 124 +P HST averaged 1253 FPS, Speer 124+P Gold Dot 1262 FPS, Winchester Ranger 124 +P 1292 FPS, CorBon 125+P 1339 FPS. I never had a 7.848" barrel for testing, but in a 5.9" barrel the Winchester NATO averaged 1244 FPS . Results of course will vary,i.e., different days, different lots of ammunition, different guns even though same barrel length,etc., but you get the idea.........ymmv
For example: Winchester 9MM NATO tested in a 5" barrel averaged 1206 FPS. Federal 124 +P HST averaged 1253 FPS, Speer 124+P Gold Dot 1262 FPS, Winchester Ranger 124 +P 1292 FPS, CorBon 125+P 1339 FPS. I never had a 7.848" barrel for testing, but in a 5.9" barrel the Winchester NATO averaged 1244 FPS . Results of course will vary,i.e., different days, different lots of ammunition, different guns even though same barrel length,etc., but you get the idea.........ymmv
The NATO round is between the Standard and the +P loading in the 9mm ammo.
In all my test........
my bullets preformed well and had good accuracy before they
ever reached the higher NATO fps in my 3 to 5" barrels.
The 115gr GD only needs a maximum of 1180fps and the heavier
124gr GD only needs 1140fps out of a 3.5" barrel to expand correctly.
At the NATO and +P speeds you will gain energy but also a lot more recoil.......
and more training to learn to control the larger muzzle whip.
In all my test........
my bullets preformed well and had good accuracy before they
ever reached the higher NATO fps in my 3 to 5" barrels.
The 115gr GD only needs a maximum of 1180fps and the heavier
124gr GD only needs 1140fps out of a 3.5" barrel to expand correctly.
At the NATO and +P speeds you will gain energy but also a lot more recoil.......
and more training to learn to control the larger muzzle whip.
Bill Lear
Member
The 9mm "Luger" is the moniker applied to the original 9x19 ammo as loaded by US manufacturers. This was because the original pistol for the cartridge was in fact named after it's designer - Georg Johann LUGER.
A more common name is: "9mm Parabellum" which is the English translation for the original latin: "Si vis pacem, para bellum."
The original "Luger" pistols were manufactured by "Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken" (DWM).
In Europe, calibers are generally identified by both width and case length in millimeters, ergo, the 9x19 (9mm Luger).
the 9mm "NATO" is a "standard" set by the governing body of the "North American Treaty Organization" for ammunition loaded in caliber 9mm x 19mm. The NATO standard is generally about 100 fps faster with a 124 grain FMJ bullet than domestic ammunition.
The 9x19 has been around for well over 100 years and keeps on going simply because it's a small, compact case, loaded to high pressure, that delivers superior performance in standard size, and compact handguns.
Last edited:
iPac
Member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2015
- Messages
- 1,155
- Reaction score
- 1,398
I like the NATO 9mm rounds. A little more "spunk" to them, and seem better quality.
When I bought my Beretta PX4 compact model, it was the 1st month they released that version, and I got one of the first production pieces. These compact models were made in Italy, and supposedly Beretta installed the first batch with heavier recoil springs that the EU market would get. Due to this, regular WWB or other bargain ammo would not reliably cycle the action.
At the time Beretta had no word of a correction and it was recommended you break the gun in with 500-800rds to loosen the spring. Luckily my local Dunhams had boxes Winchester NATO on sale for like $10, so I stocked up with like 500rds.
Ultimately, I shot about 800rds total through the gun trying to break in the spring so it shoots bargain ammo reliably, without total success. About that time Beretta issued a recall notice and issued the first batch buyers with a new spring, and let you keep the old one.
I keep the old one in the gun because it works great with NATO, stouter reloads, or any high quality SD ammo like my HST +P that it stays loaded with.
From my experience with those Winchester NATO rounds, they were excellent quality and performance.
When I bought my Beretta PX4 compact model, it was the 1st month they released that version, and I got one of the first production pieces. These compact models were made in Italy, and supposedly Beretta installed the first batch with heavier recoil springs that the EU market would get. Due to this, regular WWB or other bargain ammo would not reliably cycle the action.
At the time Beretta had no word of a correction and it was recommended you break the gun in with 500-800rds to loosen the spring. Luckily my local Dunhams had boxes Winchester NATO on sale for like $10, so I stocked up with like 500rds.
Ultimately, I shot about 800rds total through the gun trying to break in the spring so it shoots bargain ammo reliably, without total success. About that time Beretta issued a recall notice and issued the first batch buyers with a new spring, and let you keep the old one.
I keep the old one in the gun because it works great with NATO, stouter reloads, or any high quality SD ammo like my HST +P that it stays loaded with.
From my experience with those Winchester NATO rounds, they were excellent quality and performance.
