9mm high performance ammo

The JAG opinion cited earlier dealt with the use of the Sierra HPBT sniper round. The round was found to be in compliance with the Hague Convention since the hollow point feature was an accuracy enhancement and neither was designed to affect the expansion characteristics of the bullet, nor did it do so in practice.

However, the convention limitations on ammunition only applies to conflict between nation states who are signatories of the convention and the uniformed regularly enrolled uniformed military forces of said states. While the US may, or may not, have signed said agreements (been about 40 years for me too), we do comply with them.

Having said all the above, terrorists are outside the scope of the agreement. The Spec-Ops folks do have wider freedom of equipment choice than line troops, but they still have logistics issues. The supply chain makes it much more convenient to obtain ball ammo. There is also a mil-spec 77 gr 5.56 mm round available through the established supply chain that has a proven track record.

There is a depressing tendency of some vendors who have sold an item (like a case of ammo) for T&E to some government entity to claim that it's "being used by.........." when it actually isn't-or at least in the manner we might expect. I expect the various granulated/powdered metal core bullets were designed to comply with lead free bullet requirements like California's or where the EPA/DER is having hissy fits over lead. They'd also appear to do well for training where steel targets or bullet fragments/splash from conventional ammo pose issues. Most wonder ammo that supposedly causes a target to do a double back flip, kick twice and expire, generally doesn't-at least with targets over 20-30 lbs.
 
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The JAG opinion cited earlier dealt with the use of the Sierra HPBT sniper round. The round was found to be in compliance with the Hague Convention since the hollow point feature was an accuracy enhancement and neither was designed to affect the expansion characteristics of the bullet, nor did it do so in practice.

However, the convention limitations on ammunition only applies to conflict between nation states who are signatories of the convention and the uniformed regularly enrolled uniformed military forces of said states. While the US may, or may not, have signed said agreements (been about 40 years for me too), we do comply with them.

Having said all the above, terrorists are outside the scope of the agreement. The Spec-Ops folks do have wider freedom of equipment choice than line troops, but they still have logistics issues. The supply chain makes it much more convenient to obtain ball ammo. There is also a mil-spec 77 gr 5.56 mm round available through the established supply chain that has a proven track record.

There is a depressing tendency of some vendors who have sold an item (like a case of ammo) for T&E to some government entity to claim that it's "being used by.........." when it actually isn't-or at least in the manner we might expect. I expect the various granulated/powdered metal core bullets were designed to comply with lead free bullet requirements like California's or where the EPA/DER is having hissy fits over lead. They'd also appear to do well for training where steel targets or bullet fragments/splash from conventional ammo pose issues. Most wonder ammo that supposedly causes a target to do a double back flip, kick twice and expire, generally doesn't-at least with targets over 20-30 lbs.

The outfits like Navy SEALS are authorized the go out, and purchase the ammo, and equipment on the open market, that they believe is better than what the standard ground pounders are issued.

EarlFH
 
Yes, I said that too. The issue is getting that ammo from point of purchase to East Camelhump, Waziristan in a timely manner on a continuing basis. It's a different matter if you're equipping for a specific mission and all related gear is supplied for a one time mission.

International Cartridge Company makes a duty version of their sintered metal/frangible ammo that has been used for specific specialized missions. That ammo has the advantage of no jacket that could act as shrapnel if the bullet strikes something hard and fragments. The entire bullet turns into powder in that case.
 
Yes, I said that too. The issue is getting that ammo from point of purchase to East Camelhump, Waziristan in a timely manner on a continuing basis. It's a different matter if you're equipping for a specific mission and all related gear is supplied for a one time mission.

International Cartridge Company makes a duty version of their sintered metal/frangible ammo that has been used for specific specialized missions. That ammo has the advantage of no jacket that could act as shrapnel if the bullet strikes something hard and fragments. The entire bullet turns into powder in that case.

Do you know whether that round will turn to powder, if it hit's human flesh? It sounds like the ammo that's primarily made for target work, that breaks down when hitting steel plates. I'd be curiuous to know what it does on softer material.

EarlFH
 
Do you know whether that round will turn to powder, if it hit's human flesh? It sounds like the ammo that's primarily made for target work, that breaks down when hitting steel plates. I'd be curiuous to know what it does on softer material.

EarlFH

Look at the International Cartridge Company website. They had/have some impressive videos of ballistic gelatin tests. You want to look specifically at the duty ammo. I'm not sure what the differences are between the practice & duty ammo. Either saw through things like 4x4s (wood) without issue so there is a penetration capability.
 
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124 vs 124+p vs short barrel

I'm going to order some 50 rd boxes of Gold Dot LE, and I'm trying to decide between regular and +p. On the Speer website, the regular 124gr has the same data as the Short Barrel 124+p, while the non-short barrel 124+p has more velocity and energy than the other two. My question is, why get the short barrel ammo when it's exactly the same as the regular 124gr (not +p)? What am I missing?
I have a 9c that shoots well with the short barrel ammo, but I'm trying to save some money.
 
I'm going to order some 50 rd boxes of Gold Dot LE, and I'm trying to decide between regular and +p. On the Speer website, the regular 124gr has the same data as the Short Barrel 124+p, while the non-short barrel 124+p has more velocity and energy than the other two. My question is, why get the short barrel ammo when it's exactly the same as the regular 124gr (not +p)? What am I missing?
I have a 9c that shoots well with the short barrel ammo, but I'm trying to save some money.

The SB opens and performs at lower velocities, which is important since shorter barrels equal lower velocity. At 3.5 I'd order the normal ammo and not worry about it. JMO.
 
So is the short barrel ammo just a marketing thing? Every stat Speer listed matched the regular 124.
 
So is the short barrel ammo just a marketing thing? Every stat Speer listed matched the regular 124.

No, the construction of the SB is different than the normal round. If you put one of each, the normal and SB's in 124gr rounds beside each other, the difference is clear. The SB opening is wider, the sideways thinner etc. That's why I would not use the SB in your gun, it's designed for 2" guns. I think it would over expand in your gun. JMO.
 
Thank you for that info! I'll go with 124 or 124+p. Is there such a thing as a 9mm with a 2" barrel?
 
Thank you for that info! I'll go with 124 or 124+p. Is there such a thing as a 9mm with a 2" barrel?

Not that I am aware of, 2" was the design criteria, with 3" still being in the performance envelope. I know Speer says 4" is not recommended. 3.5 is a gray area, but 1/2" is about 50-75fps, so you ought to be OK IMO.
 
I ordered 100 rounds if GD 124+p. The kick will be more pronounced than the short barrel +p, but I don't think the standard 124 is a good summertime choice. Per Speer, anyway.
 
Ammo choices are always a heated debate. Everyone has their opinions. The OP originally asked for non + P ammo and to that I can't think of anything better than the old street proven standby 9BP or even Gold Dots...so has the 9BPLE round.

For me, I like the Ranger T +P+ and Speer's GD 124 gr +P.
 
My Beretta 92F and Argentine Hi Power are both loaded with Winchester SXT 147gr. JHPs. I figure if more than 19 or 14 rounds are needed I'm in a firefight, and should be running towards my rifle. I've never been a fan of light, fast bullets, especially in a 9mm. Maybe in a 5.56 rifle but definitely not in a handgun. Call me old-school but I believe in throwing the heaviest bullet in that particular caliber at an opponent.
 
Hi:
I carry whatever "Wal-Mart" has in stock.
At present it is Winchester JHP.
I haven't been in a gun battle with a Motorcycle Gang, Terrorist Group, or Zombies lately. But if I do I will post how well the ammo performed if I still am on the green side of dirt.
Jimmy
 

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