9mm, Please help me out with this.....

[rwsmith]

Though I've been reloading well over 40 years, 9mm has been a problem to me. Some I can blame on short chambers but I've fixed most of the problems with my 'normal' loads of 125 gr coated SWC and plated bullets. So why am I running into trouble here?:

I'm loading 160 gr. bullets I had left over from an experiment some years back. I've got some LSWCHP and FN bullets. These are the flat nose. When trying for max loads with Unique and Acc. # 7 I had trouble compressing the loads that bulged cases and softer bullets that caused chambering problems. BUT I'M NOT DOING THAT now. I'm loading them with 4.2 grains of Titegroup so there is PLENTY of room in the case for the bullet. The bullets measure .355" dia. before and after seating. The gauge and the barrel both act similarly when plunking.


See Fig. 1, the finished cartridge:

The case O.D. measures good all the way up and the crimp is just enough to chamber good (I'm pretty sure about this, when I backed off the crimp a little, it wouldn't chamber) I'm using a Wilson 9mm case gauge and a barrel from a full size 3rd gen. for the plunk test.

See Fig. 2, the bullet plunked by gravity:

When I 'plunk' the bullet it stops and rides down slowly by gravity until it stops completely as shown.

See Fig. 3, Finishing the plunk by light pressure on the case:

Whatever is keeping the case from plunking completely by gravity feels SOFT. But when I press it a little, it sinks down to a a good plunk. Then I have to pull the cartridge out of the barrel or push it out of the gauge. Sometime when I turn the bullet and press it a few times, it gets to where it wil plunk completely, so it seems SOMETHING is being swaged a little when chambering. The rifling touching it perhaps?? But it isn't obvious from the surface of the bullet that it has been swaged against anything.

What do you all think??? Have you seen this when loading lead bullets?

 

[Forrest r]

Bullet needs seated deeper.

There should be +/- 20/1000th's of the bullets shoulder sticking above the top of the case.

 

[rwsmith]

Ah, thanks..........

Bullet needs seated deeper.

There should be +/- 20/1000th's of the bullets shoulder sticking above the top of the case.

... very much. I'll give it a try. I seated them to the provided crimp groove (though why 9mm bullets have a 'crimp groove' I wouldn't know) and the OAL was well within limits so I thought it would be ok. I need to measure the OAL again. Maybe I can seat them deeper without shaving them off. I load my 125 gr coated SWCs with about a fingernail of the shoulder showing

 

[Forrest r]

The bullet (red) on the left is an early design (1900) made for the 38s&w. It a hb version of the lyman 35870. The bullet on the right (green) is a Mihec 640 series fn, a 125gr hp designed for the 9mm. Both have the same OAL to fit in the 9mm's chamber. As you can see the red bullet is a lot longer & seats deeper into the case.

Myself, I'd take extreme caution with seating those heavy bullets deeper. The deeper they seat the less case capacity you'll have to work with increasing pressure.

Ramshot powders put this graph in their reloading manuals showing the effects of seating bullets deeper and the pressure increases that result from the less case capacity.

Quickloads showing the same thing

Hercules used to put this out before becoming part of allaint.

 

[Forrest r]

Myself, I'd rethink the 4.2gr load of titegroup and that +/- 160gr bullet.

Hodgdon reloading data center is showing 2.6gr (max) for a 160gr blue rn bullet.

Decades ago we'd take the 5" bbl's out of our 38super raceguns and fit a 6" bbl'd 9mm bbl in the (late 80's/early 90's). I'd cast the lyman 358311 (160gr rn) and use 4.5gr of unique to make major loads.

A link to the lyman 44th reloading manual.
https://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Ma...oading Handbook --- 44th Edition --- 1967.pdf

On page 116 you will find the reloading data I used to reload that 358311 160gr rn bullet using unique powder.

On that same page you will see +/- 3.5gr for a max load of bullseye and reddot. Titegroup is as hot if not hotter/more pressure than those 2 powders.

Good luck and be safe

 

[Huskerguy]

4.2 grains of Titegroup with a 160 grain lead bullet? I have been working on several different lead bullets for my Prodigy and do not approach anything with that much TG, especially a heavier bullet. As stated, take a look a the Hodgdon site. Reloading Data Center | Hodgdon

I load a 124 grain NOE FP bullet and it shoots wonderfully in both my Ruger Carbine and Prodigy at 3.5 grains. Please double check that load or is that a typo?

 

[Krogen]

It looks to me like you're loading a .38 cal revolver bullet. It's a semi-wadcutter with a crimp groove. Not to say that it won't work in 9mm, but it wouldn't be my choice. I suspect the should is hanging up on the chamber's throat and not letting the cartridge go forward to headspace on the case mouth.

 

[zeke]

It looks to me like you're loading a .38 cal revolver bullet. It's a semi-wadcutter with a crimp groove. Not to say that it won't work in 9mm, but it wouldn't be my choice. I suspect the should is hanging up on the chamber's throat and not letting the cartridge go forward to headspace on the case mouth.

Agree it appears the 160 gn bullet showed is not designed for 9mm, and loaded out way too far to chamber, while using up a whole lot of case volume. Depending on the diam of the bullet, it may also present some difficulties in feeding, depending on how generous the pistol's chamber is.

If really determined to use this bullet, might consider slugging your barrel and comparing to the diam of the bullet. Then, as previously suggested, seating the bullet to a suitable length while reducing your powder charge to account for the volume being used by the bullet, while chronographing your loads. Or just use a bullet designed for 9mm.

 

[reddog81]

I wouldn't seat the bullet any deeper. If the round chambers with a light press on the case, it will chamber just fine when being slammed home by the slide. I would load it as long as possible after verifying it fits the magazine, feeds, and chambers. There is no need to seat the bullet deeper if it functions as is.

I would definitely drop the charge down. Hodgdon has load data for a 160 grain bullet with titegroup and the starting charge is 2.1 grains and a max of 2.6

 

[glenwolde]

I've been working on much the same for some time. The 9mm Luger has not been cast-bullet friendly in my experience. I can get them loaded up but the accuracy isn't there. I've come to the conclusion that I need a bullet with a sharp shoulder, and it needs to be .357 diameter. Those are the two things that improved accuracy.

I just loaded some 150gr SWC that have no crimp groove for testing. I have shot some 150gr revolver bullets sized to .357 and they seemed promising. Unfortunately I ran out of them before I could come to a conclusion.

These 150's are the first bullet that I've had to adjust deeper for a plunck-pass. Prior to these anything that fit in the mag would plunk. Even the 147's. Gun is a 1911 Springfield Target.

 

[randyp]

Agree with previous comments that 2.6 grains of Hodgdon titegroup is max for a 9mm 160 grain bullet according to Hodgdon's reloading data center. Lyman's 49th edition shows a max load of 2.8 grains of Titegroup with a 147 grain bullet. Seating that bullet deep enough with that much Titegroup will be some serious pressure.

 

[rwsmith]

Thanks, I HOPE I'm confused...

Myself, I'd rethink the 4.2gr load of titegroup and that +/- 160gr bullet.

Hodgdon reloading data center is showing 2.6gr (max) for a 160gr blue rn bullet.

Decades ago we'd take the 5" bbl's out of our 38super raceguns and fit a 6" bbl'd 9mm bbl in the (late 80's/early 90's). I'd cast the lyman 358311 (160gr rn) and use 4.5gr of unique to make major loads.

A link to the lyman 44th reloading manual.
https://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Ma...oading Handbook --- 44th Edition --- 1967.pdf

On page 116 you will find the reloading data I used to reload that 358311 160gr rn bullet using unique powder.

On that same page you will see +/- 3.5gr for a max load of bullseye and reddot. Titegroup is as hot if not hotter/more pressure than those 2 powders.

Good luck and be safe

I may be confused about what I put in those cartridges. I hope I'm wrong about the 4.2 of Titegroup. my data book got misplaced, but I did double check the load against Hodgdons data before I loaded it. I'm going to pull some to make sure. Dang. I hope to gosh I didn't put too heavy a charge in them. Thanks A LOT for catching that. I think I was supposed to write 2.4 instead of 4.2.


UPDATE: I checked them, they are 2.4 grains of Titegroup. Sorry about the confusion and I appreciate your catching the error before I blew something up!

 

[rwsmith]

You are probably right....

It looks to me like you're loading a .38 cal revolver bullet. It's a semi-wadcutter with a crimp groove. Not to say that it won't work in 9mm, but it wouldn't be my choice. I suspect the should is hanging up on the chamber's throat and not letting the cartridge go forward to headspace on the case mouth.

As I said, these are bullets left over from an experiment I did year ago using heavy for 9mm bullets. What you said made me think that they took .38 cal. bullets and resized them to .355", leaving the crimp groove. They were sold as 9mm bullets and measured out as such. They are tough to find as these are out of the 'norm' for 9mm.

My latest 'experiment' is loading 90 gr. bullets in 9mm. The velocity should be 'impressive', especially out of a carbine.

 

[rwsmith]

When I uused the Acc #7 on these....

I've been working on much the same for some time. The 9mm Luger has not been cast-bullet friendly in my experience. I can get them loaded up but the accuracy isn't there. I've come to the conclusion that I need a bullet with a sharp shoulder, and it needs to be .357 diameter. Those are the two things that improved accuracy.

I just loaded some 150gr SWC that have no crimp groove for testing. I have shot some 150gr revolver bullets sized to .357 and they seemed promising. Unfortunately I ran out of them before I could come to a conclusion.

These 150's are the first bullet that I've had to adjust deeper for a plunck-pass. Prior to these anything that fit in the mag would plunk. Even the 147's. Gun is a 1911 Springfield Target.

....they were VERY accurate, at least at close range. If you are still experimenting, I'd give it a try. And Acc #7 gives decent velocity with the heavy bullets. My former experiment was only for close range as I was curious how these would act as a defensive round. While I've got some of these loaded up with various powders I'll probably test them for accuracy at longer distances. I hope to make some 'Play-Dough' to shoot them into, especially the hollow points. Last time I decided that the bullets weren't really suitable to get any expansion, but I didn't have a good medium to test them in.

 

[glenwolde]

....they were VERY accurate, at least at close range. If you are still experimenting, I'd give it a try. And Acc #7 gives decent velocity with the heavy bullets. My former experiment was only for close range as I was curious how these would act as a defensive round. While I've got some of these loaded up with various powders I'll probably test them for accuracy at longer distances. I hope to make some 'Play-Dough' to shoot them into, especially the hollow points. Last time I decided that the bullets weren't really suitable to get any expansion, but I didn't have a good medium to test them in.

I'm looking for 2" at 25 yards. I can do that with jacketed bullets (Precision Delta 124gr HP) in my gun but lead hasn't even gotten close.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The bullet might need to be seated deeper, if.....

it is not already entering the case by .30" , which might start
to bulge the case, due to the thicker walls.

If it can be seated deeper, you might also need to turn your crimping die down
a tad bit more, to make sure the front of the case and bullet, are not too large
to "Plunk".

I had this problem with a "Fat" 115 gr lead, coated RN bullet design,
in one of my 9mm pistols.

Have fun and stay safe.

 

[oldman10mm]

My latest 'experiment' is loading 90 gr. bullets in 9mm. The velocity should be 'impressive', especially out of a carbine.

I've been loading/shooting 380acp (.355") bullets in 9mm for 30 years now. 88gr Speers, 88gr Remingtons, & 90gr Sierras.
In a Beretta 92FS, my two standard loads are for 1350fps and 1500fps.

 

[rwsmith]

I call them....

I've been loading/shooting 380acp (.355") bullets in 9mm for 30 years now. 88gr Speers, 88gr Remingtons, & 90gr Sierras.
In a Beretta 92FS, my two standard loads are for 1350fps and 1500fps.

I call them 'Screamers'. I want to chono them out of my Ruger carbine (16" barrel) to see if they get anywhere near the 1750 fps predicted by 'Ballistics By The Inch' with the Cor-Bon 90 gr.


PS: I REALLY appreciate everybody's comments.
Besides just fixing a single problem this has been an all around learning experience for reloading 9mm.

BTW: My 'normal' load for 9mm is 125 gr Missouri SWC with just about 1/32" of the shoulder showing. I buy and shoot hundreds of these, Usually using a medium load of W231/HP38.

 

[243winxb]

163 gr lswc in 9mm Luger test

See post no. 75 here- Seating Depth | Page 3 | The High Road


Tested Nov. 29, 2023
9mm Luger in Taurus G3C.
Bullet- 163 gr lswc, Saeco #382, .3568" sized diameter. Length .707"
Loaded COL 1.026" Head to Shoulder .778"

Hodgdon Load data found for HS-6. Start 3.0 grs to 3.7 grs for 160 gr coated bullet. Fed 200 Mag Primer used. Worked up to 3.7 grs, shot 5 rounds, standing, 2 hands, 7 yards.

Ok with Blazer range brass. Jammed with 1 USA brass that measured .001" to large in the case body. Right at the bullets base.
A known problem with some brass, bullet combinations.

Not a loading i normally would use, just a test

 

[randyp]

There is an advertising video of Jerry Miculek shooting the S&W 9mm folding carbine using a handloaded 90 grain xtp bullet. He shot a can of corn at close range and then a soda can with some pretty good hydrostatic shock demonstated. He then shot a group at 100 yds with the 90 and 115 grain bullets. He stated that the lighter 90 grain bullets had the greatest velocity increase of 250 fps between a 5" pistol bbl and the 16" carbine barrel. The heavier 9mm bullets had much smaller velocity increases.