A comparison of health care systems

[afriqueart]

Frontline had a program concerning health care systems of Britain, Japan, Taiwan, China, Germany and Switzerland.

Here is a link if anyone is interested:

FRONTLINE: sick around the world: watch the full program | PBS

I've often wondered why we Americans feel that an education (free) and legal services (free if one cannot afford counsel) are considered rights but health care services are deemed socialism if they are provided in a not for profit manner.

It is no wonder that we have lower longevity, higher mortality and hundreds of thousands of our citizens (including veterans) doomed to bankruptcy because of our for profit system.

 

[m657]

Neither the education nor the legal services are free. I just sent in my property taxes to pay for both in my county.

Now that I've been out of public schools for the better part of a half-century, the warmth of continuing to repay my indebtedness for the few years I was in public school, dwindles in the face of the outrage of continuing to pay for the multiple children of the unwed woman down the street along with mulitple levels of bureaucrats whose existence hinges on sitting first on one thumb and sucking the other while shuffling papers to track when it is time to change thumbs.

And filing for bankruptcy may be next on my list. I hope that too is free, as those who have made a career out of sucking the life blood out of MY sweat are going to have to find a new mark. If not, perhaps they can find a job that pays as well as the bennies for sitting around waiting for their bennies.

Taking from those that earned them to those who didn't under the guise of errant profit-motive is confusing a lot of different systems.

Part of our 'mortality' statistics counts those way-way-way too premature deliveries that are simply excluded from the count in other western countries. And part of our massive health costs are generated by supporting those who never paid a nickle into our tax system.

 

[venomballistics]

"free" education is good, this is what makes our citizens, citizens and served as the foundation of this nations technological advancements that put us at the top of the world food chain in far less time than it has taken any socialist nation to achieve mediocrity.
"Free" council is also a good thing. Anyone can get jammed up and find themselves in court in any nation.
In the course of any hearing, it is impossible to question yourself.
In either case above, we may opt out of the "free" systems and choose private premium options.
Parochial schools, college, technical training ... on our own dime. which many prefer.
or a real attorney over a public defender for better than a snowballs chance in ....


"Free" Healthcare .... this only looks good with a very shallow glance at the subject.
As written, you may not opt out of this system without what appears to be felony charges.
This is poor legislation and designed to fleece the sheeple.
next problem is that the quality of the care must be reduced. Look at the headaches caused by the HMO's the last time we veered left. this is going to suck far worse.
right now, you may decide if you wish to be treated for a life threatening illness like cancer, or you may decide that enough is enough and depart gracefully. This decision will no longer be yours to make in this new system.
Even if the technology exists to save your life. its going to be up to a government run boards review, whether or not you will receive it.
think about that, next time you run a red light in your new Utopian Amerika

 

[Spotteddog]

That Sir, was a work of art!

It covered all the aspects and bases, and didn't waste an extra second at any of the four points of the compass. Bloody marvelous 657!
My compliments to the chef!

(EDIT)
BTW, I'm sure you realize that Frontline is produced by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting? Which is a wholly owned subsidiary of the federal government, existing via your tax dollars.
Just think of them as the communications/propaganda arm of OCI (Obama Care Inc.).

 

[Hofstet]

m657 My sentiments exactly +1

 

[BarbC]

In either case above, we may opt out of the "free" systems and choose private premium options.
Parochial schools, college, technical training ... on our own dime. which many prefer.
or a real attorney over a public defender for better than a snowballs chance in ....

Don't forget the part where you still have to pay for the "free option" even though you choose the private premium option.

 

[n4zov]

Let me ask a simple question about our "inferior" health care system. How many Americans do you know who are fleeing our shores to seek health care abroad? Sure there are some who risk their lives to get cheaper care in Mexico or some third world country, but if our care is so bad there should be lines at the border looking for health care elsewhere. I have traveled in the UK and talked with people who are subject to their National Health Care system, and I have never talked with anybody who liked it! One person told me this, "If you Americans think you want what we have (health care), you are all crazy!

 

[ladder13]

"for profit", is that supposed to be some kind of dirty word?

 

[venomballistics]

Don't forget the part where you still have to pay for the "free option" even though you choose the private premium option.

I havnt Barb ... I was trying to keep from turning a simple post into an epic novel

I also left out the part where while I appreciate the many unfortunate people out there who are in need of help in general, and even wish for a way of getting them out of the hole.
I know not of any method to get someone else out of the hole without putting another in the hole.

 

[afriqueart]

Just kinda leaves a foul taste in ones mouth when it comes to some profitting off the misfortune of others.

Say, for example, a veteran (not eligible for health care services from the VA because she served her term and was not wounded or awarded any service connected disability) has worked for an automobile company for most of her career. Her job was outsourced and she was terminated. She couldn't afford $750 a month for a premium with a $10,000 deductible because she was working 2 slightly higher than minimum wage jobs (she has a bachelors degree) to put food on the table for herself and her child (hubby traded her in for a younger model).

She has the misfortune of being diagnosed with cancer.

She most likely will be put into a deep financial pit - let's assume through no fault of her own. She's never been stupid enough to smoke. She has a glass of wine occassionally. She doesn't live on a diet of happy meals and deep fried pork skin, etc. She's basically done everything she "should have done." Chances are very good that if she survives her ailment, she will have no viable option but to declare bankruptcy and pass her "burden" to all of us, anyway.

How is it ethical that she should be faced with such a financial situation when she has enough on her plate simply dealing with her illness while drug company execs, admin paper pushers, insurance sales reps and others "in the industry" make boat loads of money?

I don't and never have espoused knowing the answer. It just seems to me that if Taiwan can take the best of all the health care systems they reviewed and provide good/excellent care to all of their citizens, then the best country in the world should be able to come up with a solution. By the way, after they reviewed all systems, the Taiwanese didn't incorporate any aspects of the system we have here in the USA.

Most everyone agrees that our system needs much work. Thank goodness folks in Washington are at least talking about solutions and are offering ideas. Hopefully the good ones will take root and the ones pushed by lobbyists will be ignored.

 

[BarbC]

Chances are very good that if she survives her ailment, she will have no viable option but to declare bankruptcy and pass her "burden" to all of us, anyway

I'd rather take that gamble and pay the bills for someone truly broke and desperate than pay for more government bureaucracy to manage her public health plan, staffed by more government bureaucrats.

It's not the charity I object to. It's the government intervention, low-bidder staffing, and utter waste that goes hand-in-hand with government contracts and government agencies.

 

[venomballistics]

I used to talk extensively with a medical professional in the British system. a lovely and intelligent nurse was she.
They claim that everyone who comes to the hospital is seen by a medical professional within the first 10 minutes.
this is technically true....
it is a common policy that an RN hand you the paperwork to fill out.
since an RN is a medical professional and in the course of handing you the paperwork, the RN visually saw you. You have been "seen" by a medical professional within the first 10 minutes.
therefore the claim holds...
your actual medical examination, which you would really be "seen" generally occurs an hour and a half later when a doctor decides to feel like examining you. Depending upon the enthusiasm of the doctor at the time, your wait can delay to the next shift.
Shes seen people croak in the waiting room.
Note, I make use of the word "enthusiasm" above ... this is very important to understand as it is a vital commodity, and a dwindling one at that.
My RN friend has seen alot of suffering, death, disfigurement and even a good portion of the bitter fruit from mans inhumanity to man.
for all her struggles and efforts in the field, her wages are such that we pooled money to send her when her car dropped its tranny.
she could not even begin to afford the repair herself.
She's a rare breed of lady, despite it all, she does still care, even though she is most often powerless to render the help that she knows she should, and even would, if it wasn't for the government run system that ties her hands.
its more cost effective to send her out with a mop and bucket while assistants bag the body.

 

[afriqueart]

Wouldn't it be better to build a system that didn't rely on some willing to gamble with some one elses livelihood.

Surely a system could be designed that would not allow someone to have to lose it all so others aren't inconvenienced.

 

[venomballistics]

not possible to achieve.
at least not at this time. You see, the vast majority of our taxpayers are finding it difficult, if not impossible to set aside any money for a rainy day .... any proposed system will need some form of funding by way of taxes.
that puts these tax payers in the hole.
you might like to spout the tax the rich rhetoric at this time.
This too would present funding to a program.
Unfortunately as the rate of inflation does what it does, the rich who own the shops creating the jobs of the vast majority of taxpayers, will no longer be able to afford the raises to compensate for inflation.
Where does this put them? .... why ... back in the hole.
and it only gets worse since those writing these new laws embrace illegal immigrants who place an enormous strain upon the current system, and will only multiply the strain on an expanded system.
There just is not a wrench designed to turn the bolts to build this right

 

[Spotteddog]

What remains is that whether we like it or not, agree with it or not and whether or not all are "comfortable" with certain aspects of it, it is what it is. Pie in the sky is the purview of dreamers, I'd like to visit big rock candy mountain too! But I don't think I'll live long enough to see that either?
What I'm having trouble with, is a frighteningly high percentage of our population that has NO concept of what amount of money 12 decimal places really is?
We can't afford it...plain and simple.

 

[venomballistics]

What remains is that whether we like it or not, agree with it or not and whether or not all are "comfortable" with certain aspects of it, it is what it is. Pie in the sky is the purview of dreamers, I'd like to visit big rock candy mountain too! But I don't think I'll live long enough to see that either?
What I'm having trouble with, is a frighteningly high percentage of our population that has NO concept of what amount of money 12 decimal places really is?
We can't afford it...plain and simple.

about all I think we could afford is one way cab fare to Tijuana for all the house representatives

 

[ladder13]

I "need" a new riding mower, it's a "necessity", otherwise it will cost me an arm and a leg to hire a landscape company to maintain my property. Trouble is those evil people at John Deere want to make money! How dare they? Don't they know it's my right to own my own lawnmower, at minimal cost to me?
I also "need" a new car, how dare GM charge so much for their products? After all, without a car, how can I get around?
I "need" food too, why do the basic food necessities cost so much? Don't the food producers know that without food I'll die?
What's more important, food or healthcare?

 

[ladder13]

Surely a system could be designed that would not allow someone to have to lose it all so others aren't inconvenienced.

My liberties are not an "inconvenience".

 

[venomballistics]

I "need" food too, why do the basic food necessities cost so much? Don't the food producers know that without food I'll die?
What's more important, food or healthcare?

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!
good one.
perhaps in the new system they will treat us for starvation

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Frontline had a program concerning health care systems of Britain, Japan, Taiwan, China, Germany and Switzerland.

Here is a link if anyone is interested:

FRONTLINE: sick around the world: watch the full program | PBS

I've often wondered why we Americans feel that an education (free) and legal services (free if one cannot afford counsel) are considered rights but health care services are deemed socialism if they are provided in a not for profit manner.

It is no wonder that we have lower longevity, higher mortality and hundreds of thousands of our citizens (including veterans) doomed to bankruptcy because of our for profit system.

I'm not convinced that longevity is directly related to how healthcare is delivered among the above nations. There are many factors that influence longevity.

For example: The rate of obesity for the countries listed above.

Percentage of total population who have a BMI (body mass index) greater than 30

US = 30.6%
UK = 23%
Japan = 3.2%
Taiwan = ??
China = ??
Germany = 12.9%
Switzerland = 7.7%

'I wonder' if those who support Obamacare believe that America's obesity rate will drop from 30% to that of Japan's 3%? Perhaps bankrupting this nation will result in a nationwide reduction of calories.... ? In any event, such longevity comparisons among nations are typically quite flawed.

Obesity statistics - countries compared - NationMaster