A hello and a question

[turnstyle]

Greetings. Been enjoying reading up on all of the great threads here in the S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 forum. I recently acquired a couple old school shooters. One is a 1905 .32 Winchester CTG and the other is a .45 long Colt. I was told they were both K Frames but finding grips for the 45 has been a trick. The K Frame grip nearly fits, but not quite big enough. If I match up the two guns one grip frame is slightly bigger, but not much. The 45 has E564 stamped screw side with a serial number of 14** . Could this be an L Frame? I have some cowboy load ammo on the way and I desperately want some grips that fit this cool old timer so I can shoot it. Any input is greatly appreciated.

Scottro

 

[gunfish]

There is no K frame for 45Colt. It is an N frame, slightly larger. A picture would be most helpful.

 

[DWalt]

Actually, there is no such cartridge correctly known as the .45 Long Colt, rather just plain .45 Colt. There is a slightly shorter version of the .45 Colt, but it is called the .45 S&W or .45 Schofield. There is, however, a .41 Long Colt and a .38 Long Colt. No .45 Long Colt- that's something that started with gun writers back in the 1960s - must have sounded cool to them, I guess.

 

[turnstyle]

It is interesting that sellers would perpetuate something that doesn't technically exist. I just purchased ammo listed as .45 long colt cowboy loads for the gun. Here are some pictures that I just snapped without cleaning anything.

 

[turnstyle]

There is no K frame for 45Colt. It is an N frame, slightly larger. A picture would be most helpful.

Thank you!

 

[Hondo44]

It is interesting that sellers would perpetuate something that doesn't technically exist. I just purchased ammo listed as .45 long colt cowboy loads for the gun. Here are some pictures that I just snapped without cleaning anything.

Thanks for the pics. You have the first N frame hand ejector, the 44 Hand Ejector 1st Model also known as the "Triple-lock". The version you have was introduced in 1914 as the .455 Mark II HE 1st Model chambered for the British .455 Mark II round. The many import inspector stamping marks indicate it was made for and shipped on a British contract or Canadian. The E564 # is not a factory stamping but the factory serial # will be found on the butt. It also had a lanyard ring, now gone, which is typical for this model.

As is common, these guns are often found converted to a more available American cartridge when brought back to the states. That .45 L Colt cartridge barrel marking is not an S&W rollmark. The gun has been chambered for .45 Colt and, depending on how the conversion was accomplished, may also still chamber and safely fire the .455 cartidge. A shot of the rear face of the cylinder will help confirm that.

 

[Hondo44]

the 45 Colt vs '45 Long Colt'

I cringe at the sound or sight of 45 Long Colt but here's the history of the term:

Shortly after the Army procured S&W Schofield revolvers, the 1st time a supply depot accidentally shipped 45 Colt ammo to a unit issued the 45 S&W Schofield revolvers (needing the shorter S&W round), the Army figured out it had a multiple ammunition problem! Coincidentally troops were complaining about the recoil of the original Colt 40gr load of blackpowder and resulting poor marksmanship.

Soon the original 40 gr load was reduced to 28 grs. Then government arsenals established the 45 S&W round as standard since it would chamber in both the 45 Colt SAA and S&W revolvers.

However, since the 45 Colt cartridge inventory was not depleted for some time, those troopers issued the 45 Colt SAA and that appreciated the superior performance of the 45 Colt round specifically requested the longer round, the long Colt round.
And there you have it; it was a description, never an official designation.

The rest of the story:
Since both revolvers were popular on the frontier the distinguishing description continued to be used whenever ammunition was purchased. SAA users wanted the 45 Colt rounds. As is the case with most misnomers, the darned term stuck. So much so that ammunition in 45 Colt caliber was actually marked 45 LC on packaging boxes and is to this day by some manufacturers. I have none by Remington or Winchester in my inventory, however.

I'm not buying it as a correct term however, merely a misnomer or physical description only with a small 'L'.

 

[turnstyle]

A shot of the rear face of the cylinder will help confirm that.

Thank you for the history. I will take a shot or two of the rear face later this evening.

 

[turnstyle]

I cringe at the sound or sight of 45 Long Colt but here's the history of the term:

Shortly after the Army procured S&W Schofield revolvers, the 1st time a supply depot accidentally shipped 45 Colt ammo to a unit issued the 45 S&W Schofield revolvers (needing the shorter S&W round), the Army figured out it had a multiple ammunition problem! Coincidentally troops were complaining about the recoil of the original Colt 40gr load of blackpowder and resulting poor marksmanship.

Soon the original 40 gr load was reduced to 28 grs. Then government arsenals established the 45 S&W round as standard since it would chamber in both the 45 Colt SAA and S&W revolvers.

However, since the 45 Colt cartridge inventory was not depleted for some time, those troopers issued the 45 Colt SAA and that appreciated the superior performance of the 45 Colt round specifically requested the longer round, the long Colt round.
And there you have it; it was a description, never an official designation.

Thanks, Jim. Appreciate the info.

 

[Art Doc]

Long Colt is indeed correct terminology but not used much any longer. As noted it differentiated between the original 45 Colt and the shorter Schofield ammo in Army inventories. I recall factory ammo boxes in the 1960s labeled Long Colt.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Your 1905 .32-20 is a K frame. Give us a partial serial # and we can date it for you. Also, pictures of it would be nice. Congratulations on the triplelock. That's a very desirable collector.

 

[glowe]

The 32-20 is a K frame not an I frame. Same revolver as the Model 1905 38 Special.

My 1881 US Cartridge catalog has the No. 45 designation. The 38 Long and the 41 Long are so marked in the catalog, but no "Long" for the 45. Look at old ammo boxes and you will not find any labeled 45 Long Colt. At least I have never found one. I assume that in order to have a 45 Long, you would need a 45 Short, but that was the Schofield and so labeled.

 

[turnstyle]

Your 1905 .32-20 is a K frame. Give us a partial serial # and we can date it for you. Also, pictures of it would be nice. Congratulations on the triplelock. That's a very desirable collector.

Thank you, I am pretty excited. I had already gotten grips for the 1905. Managed to get some pretty old NOS Pachmayr for it. I will post a partial serial # this evening.

I am interested in learning more about the triplelock. That one was the one where I could find hardly any info... I suppose searching long colt only clouded the results further.

Thanks again for all the info!

Scottro

 

[glowe]

Your 455 Triplelock was used by the British in WWI. There is a thread that might help.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...245687-long-barrel-1914-s-w-455-revolver.html

The correct grips are N frame as shown on my 2nd Model. These can be found on ebay, Gunbroker, etc.

 

[Hondo44]

Scottro,
Some great reading for you, enjoy.
More good threads about barrel markings and history of the Triple Lock:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/239321-
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/220054-triple-lock-info.html#post136360219

TL caliber-markings-45-colt-44-wcf.html
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...y-tests-triple-lock-1907-a.html#post136412595

See here for the rest of the prototypes:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/swca-m...ne-12-prototypes-triple-lock-made-1906-a.html

.45 Triple Locks chambered in '45 S&W Special' from 1906
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/239473-army-tests-triple-lock-1907-a.html

455 British contract guns and proof marks:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=236093
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/244440-triple-bubba-lock.html#post136467632

455 Conversion threads:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...rrel-1914-s-w-455-revolver.html#post136479005
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...455-hand-ejector-2nd-model.html#post136638584

 

[turnstyle]

Here are a few more shots of the triple lock.

a lot of interesting markings.

 

[turnstyle]

Here are a few shots of the 1905 for those interested

 

[turnstyle]

Your 1905 .32-20 is a K frame. Give us a partial serial # and we can date it for you. Also, pictures of it would be nice. Congratulations on the triplelock. That's a very desirable collector.

Sorry for taking so long to post back. The partial 1905 serial is 437XX.

Thanks!

 

[DWalt]

I have only a few listed in that general SN range, but those put delivery of 437XX as sometime in 1909. I list one about 1500 lower as shipping in December 1908. The .32-20s were manufactured until around 1930, but were sold from inventory until about 1940. They were serial numbered separately from the same revolver chambered in .38 Special.

 

[glowe]

Sorry for taking so long to post back. The partial 1905 serial is 437XX.

Thanks!

Taking over 2 years to reply must be a record!!!!!!!!!!