A question about Lil'gun powder and pressure

[1sailor]

Looking over loads for a 158gr jacketed bullet at the Hodgdon site I noticed something I thought peculiar. Even though they show it as producing some of the highest velocities (along with H110 and a couple others) it also shows the absolute lowest pressure by quite a bit. It shows a maximum load producing lower pressure than any other powders starting loads. In fact it is considerably lower than many other starting loads. Of course since it's in CUP I can only compare to others using the CUP pressure rating. Going by my failing memory I seem to recall that Lil'gun was developed for cartridges like the .22 Hornet etc. It just seemed odd that it would produce so little pressure with magnum loads in a .357 Magnum. Not sure what this would actually mean in real life shooting but I am curious. Have any members here used Lil'gun for magnum pistol loads and if so what were your results. Thanks.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Little gun is a shotgun powder developed for .410 . I use it in .218 Bee and .22 Hornet . I do not think it is a powder that is known to make high pressure in any kind of reasonable load . I use it in Model 43 Winchesters on account of the Low pressure while still maintaining high velocity . Never used it in pistol loads .

Eddie

 

[OKFC05]

You're mixing two different values. MAXIMUM pressure is what blows up the gun, but does not alone determine MV.
MV is determined by the total area under the pressure curve, or in physics terms, the TOTAL WORK done on the bullet while in the barrel.


It is a common mistake to assume that max pressure = MV, but it does not. A fast powder can reach max pressure quickly, and drop off quickly, which is not desirable for high MV, but great for target loads.


Now as to how Lil Gun does in handloads, it burns hot, and the pressure curve is quite flat, which means the pressure stays high all the way down the barrel, producing the observed large TOTAL WORK while staying below the MAX PRESSURE limits of the gun. It is a slow powder that performs best with long barrels and heavy loads. It is a powder to use by the tables, and not try to "add a little more!"

 

[Sevens]

Lil'Gun has a reputation well-earned for eating, eroding, and destroying barrels on the big bore magnum revolvers. This was discovered and disseminated by Freedom Arms in the .454 Casull.

Freedom is not your average gun maker. They take very genuine pride in what they build AND unlike nearly all other gun makers, they know and even recommend that their customers handload their own ammo for Freedom revolvers.

I also found some great velocities in .357 Mag using Lil'Gun and shortly after, I did my research and got rid of the rest of my 8 pound jug. I sold it to buddy loading for rifle. I gave him a good deal and also gave him full disclosure. He still has chosen to also use it to load .500 Mag. When I reminded him he said that he knew and appreciated my concerns -- but he's loading for a Taurus Raging Bull hahaha, and he genuinely doesn't care. It's a Taurus, he expects to kill it anyway.

 

[1sailor]

OKFCO5, I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not assuming that pressure equals velocity. Go to the IMR site and look it up. I am simply quoting from published information. If Lil'gun does tend to be very corrosive that is not really a good thing so that is something good to know.

 

[OKFC05]

OKFCO5, I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not assuming that pressure equals velocity. Go to the IMR site and look it up. I am simply quoting from published information. If Lil'gun does tend to be very corrosive that is not really a good thing so that is something good to know.

I have used Lil Gun, and the TOTAL INTEGRATED pressure (which is NOT in the published tables), more correctly called the TOTAL WORK, is precisely what is causing the barrel erosion by producing a sustained blast of hot, near-max pressure gas the full length of the barrels, which heats the barrel more than a faster powder, that can be loaded to the same MAX (loading table) pressure. Maybe a graph of pressure (from a Garand) will help visualize what happens to pressure as a bullet moves down the barrel. The total area under the curve is what determines MV. A fast powder has a sharply peaked curve, while the slower powder curves are flatter.

 

[scooter123]

I have a 1904 Vintage 1892 Winchester that was re-barreled in 357 Magnum at some point by a previous owner. With a distinctly moderate load using H110 I've shot it to 1MOA with some coaching by the range master. With a load using Lil'Gun shots at 100 yards groupd in the 6 to 10 inch range, so got rid of that bottle of powder by selling it to a coworker who wanted some for a 45 Raptor. Works fine in the Raptor and because he only uses it for hunting it's only shot perhaps 10-15 times a years, so barrel erosion isn't much of a factor for him.

 

[427mach1]

I use 'Lil Gun for my heavy 41 mag loads, a 265 grain LWFNGC Cast Performance with a max load of powder, MV around 1400 fps. This is my woods-carry load that I don't shoot very often so I'm not concerned about erosion as I think it would take a pretty steady diet to damage my Redhawk.

 

[Skeet 028]

I use it for 410 bore shotshells and my bear loads for the 41 mag revolvers I carry. It shoots well with the one load I use it for but they get shot sparingly anyway. I actually do not worry about erosion as I do not need to shoot all that many top of the pressure/velocity rounds per year. L'il Gun is a great powder in the 410

 

[Wise_A]

Looking over loads for a 158gr jacketed bullet at the Hodgdon site I noticed something I thought peculiar. Even though they show it as producing some of the highest velocities (along with H110 and a couple others) it also shows the absolute lowest pressure by quite a bit. It shows a maximum load producing lower pressure than any other powders starting loads. In fact it is considerably lower than many other starting loads. Of course since it's in CUP I can only compare to others using the CUP pressure rating. Going by my failing memory I seem to recall that Lil'gun was developed for cartridges like the .22 Hornet etc. It just seemed odd that it would produce so little pressure with magnum loads in a .357 Magnum. Not sure what this would actually mean in real life shooting but I am curious. Have any members here used Lil'gun for magnum pistol loads and if so what were your results. Thanks.

Look at the velocities and you'll find your answer.

Just because it's a jacketed bullet doesn't mean you can drive it at 2500 FPS. In this case, you're limited by the limitations of the bullet's construction, and probably also the limitation of recoil in some .357 Magnums. As in, at 1500 fps, cheap guns start rattling apart.

Could it be pushed? Maybe, with a quality bullet. I know the XTP's been used successfully by some shooters in .357 Maximum, but I don't see the point. If more power is desired, heavier bullets are available for the Magnum.

Lil'Gun is really more of a powder for super-sized Magnums, over .44 Mag. Alliant's 2400 is a much better choice, and will work well in both .357 and .44 Magnum, without being terribly sensitive to squibbing like the slower powders in the Lil'Gun range.

 

[Paul105]

I bought two lbs of Lil”gun (still have at least 1 lbs left) when it first came out and before FA said it was ruining forcing cones due to excessive heat. Have used it in several calibers/guns but mostly in the .357 Magnum with 185gr WLNGC from Beartooth Bullets. Never noticed hotter than normal barrels, but did not/don’t shoot multiple rounds at one time from any one gun with Lil’Gun loads.

Here are some velocities from various guns/barrel lengths (No signs of excess pressure)

Beartooth 185gr LFNGC (yes 185gr not 158gr)
New WW Cases
Fed 200 Mag
14.7gr Lil'Gun
1.595 OAL
Chron 4 Paces fr Muzzle
Temp 75 Deg


Marlin 18" ------------- 1,713 fps
Ruger BH 6.5" ------- 1,388 fps
Ruger SP101 3+" --- 1,161 fps
S&W M60 3" -------- 1,175 fps
S&W M360 Ti 1 7/8" 1,023 fps


Also used it in the 38 Super and .44 Special for some +p loads, in the .45 Colt for 300gr Ruger only, and in the .454 Casull. Again, only very limited use before reported barrel related problems surfaced.

Don’t see any reason to use it in revolvers when same performance is avail with H110/WW296 without the baggage. From the data I’ve seen, the only pressure advantage Lil’Gun has over 110/296 is in the .357 Mag.

FWIW,

Paul

 

[Jonesauto]

New to the forum, Ive been reloading for 30 plus years. I use Li Gun in my 357. 44 mag and 500 smith wheel guns. Have shot at least 1000 rounds out of each revolver, with no signs of wear. When does this start to happen ? Want to mention that I have all my loads just above starting, not even close to max.

 

[dannyabear]

It also burns up 410 hulls in about 3 reloads

 

[rwsmith]

Let's just say....

...that I've seen a lot more people talk about getting away from using Lil' Gun than I have for using it. In fact, I think I've only read one comment where somebody wanted to use it. It stuck in my mind because I thought it to be very unusual. There are so many powders that do an excellent job without all of that for a few extra fps.

The only other common powder that I've heard causing any cumulative damage to a gun is H110/W296 and that is limited to some loads and only causes some flame cutting of the top strap that is usually inconsequential.

 

[fordson]

Guess I’ll be an outlier here. I’ve used Lil’ Gun for years in 38 Super loads without any notable issue. My standard load is 12.5 grains with 135 grain jacketed bullets which gives me a MV of ~ 1162 fps. For me, this is a very accurate load at 7-15 yards. I’ve shot this load out of a Colt 1911 Government model with a Kahr barrel and a DW 1911 Guardian Commander. I don’t shoot this loading exclusively as I have other loading as well, but as least 1000 rounds thru each and haven’t seen any problems with barrel erosion. For me, it’s agood powder.

 

[Sevens]

It may be a combination of things that make the damage that Freedom Arms has found and warned against. Their experience is in the .454 Casull and their very high grade revolvers.

Difference between that and .38 Super? Well, large diameter bore... significantly higher pressure... and a cylinder to forcing cone flash gap.

For as much as some of the top ballistic labs have learned over many decades... so much still seems like "black magic." There's a lot we just don't know.

My position is that while some guns are collectible... many are not. Some are simply tools and NOBODY except the owner gets to decide. I also believe that a 1911 running .38 Super is simply a single new barrel away from being restored from any possible Lil'Gun related damage. Also remember that an X-frame S&W revolver has a two-piece barrel that is not at all a big job for S&W to replace, and S&W continues to have a stellar reputation for warranty work.

I would never suggest that we don't make our own choices. I believe the value in the discussion is to help us make our best choices with all the knowledge, opinion and experience we can gather.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I like Lil'Gun in magnum cartridges but won't use it because if the excessive heat it generates. I do however use it with heavy bullets in the.357 Magnum for ammo shot in my levergun only. It generates an average of 100 fps higher than W296/H110 with the same 180gr bullet. It's great with a 180gr Cast Performance bullet and Hornady XTP bullet too. Outstanding accuracy with both and in larger calibers too. (but not in handguns)