A Review of Five Classic 9mm Handguns

[Andyd]

Mildly surprised not to see a CZ-75B or a Beretta M-92 series gun.
I find them attractive, accurate, and reliable. Of course, you can't cite every 9mm...

I like Leonardo Carillo's post about guns in Argentina. Some Latin American countries don't allow .45 ACP guns. Glad that he can own them.

Also was surprised to learn that Bersa makes a Walther P-88 copy.

I had a CZ 75 when they just had come out and have long sold it. CZ improved the trigger of the 75 a lot since then and the SP-01 is a decent enough gun but I would not consider the CZ 75, nor the SP-01 a classic, or innovative in any respect. I would rather have included the underrated Radom VIS 35, had I not sold most of my WWII guns to concentrate on my Korth revolver collection.

I had shot a Star M30 a long time ago and found it extremely accurate. I also had a HK P9S that was extremely accurate but rather awkward to cock or shoot in DA mode. The P9S is usually credited for being the first pistol that used polymer in the trigger guard.

There are without doubt many accurate and well made guns out there but I had to draw the line and also wanted to use guns that I still own, or have easy access to. Most of the handguns in my little review have been trailblazing in the one or another aspect of handgun development.

As to the post by Leonardo Carillo, I think he should have posted this in English on an American gun site. I did not post the article in German, French, or Haitian Creole, which I very well could have done and make this a modern day Babylon.

 

[cmansguns]

Nice post...good reviews of classics made of steel.

Not to drift too far, but my Hi-Power is the only pistol that I can actually control fairly well when practicing "weak hand" defense shooting. I think I have my EDC (revolver) down pretty good, but the bottom feeders always were "all over the map" and extremely time consuming from presentation to firing, but I do like to be somewhat prepared for a "strong side incapacitated" type incident, so I do at least try on some range trips.

The Browning just seems to quickly get in place and line up. The 1941 Luger was no way. Various 1911A1's also no way. Probably my eyes and hands as well as stance maybe, but anyway...the BHP works very well for me if I am carrying a semi.

Is it true that the SIG P-220 was the last of steel framed SIG's?

Saw one in a LGS for $850 in VG condition and had to ask why the big ticket on a used gun. That's where the comment about the last steel came from. Went back next morning to possibly dicker a deal...it was gone.

 

[Andyd]

My P220 made in 1976 has an alumium alloy frame. The SIG Sauer ST models still have stainless slides and frames to the best of my knowledge but I am not really very knowledgeable about SIG Sauers, even though I have been to the factory in Eckernfoerde twice. I am actually more intrigued by revolvers than semi autos.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Nice post...good reviews of classics made of steel.





Is it true that the SIG P-220 was the last of steel framed SIG's?

Saw one in a LGS for $850 in VG condition and had to ask why the big ticket on a used gun. That's where the comment about the last steel came from. Went back next morning to possibly dicker a deal...it was gone.

Sig still offers the metal frame 220..............

Steel? or alloy frame? I have, or had, several Sigs from the 80s and 90s all were alloy frames...... my oldest is a W German 220 in .45 The steel frame Sigs IIRC came later marketed as Range/Gaming/target versions of the 220. The only ones I recall were .45s.

 

[Texas Star]

I thought the SIG P-220 came out in 1975. We didn't see them here until later, at first imported by Browning under their name.

If you are certain that you had one in 1972, some published information may be wrong.

I suspect that Sr. Carillo lacks your fluency in various languages.
Maybe he can read English fairly well, but isn't fluent enough to post here in English. I enjoyed his contribution, and probably others did, also. But I agree that when possible, English should be used.

A Mexican member also posts at times in Spanish. I suppose he, too, feels he can't express himself well enough in English. But he has worthwhile things to say. I'd rather he post in Spanish than avoid posting at all.

Why on Earth do you, a German or German-American, speak Haitian Creole? It just seems an odd language for someone not a native there, or maybe a disaster relief worker. Do we still have a Peace Corps?

Or, is that tongue close enough to true French that you can just figure it out? Can you cope with French as spoken in Quebec? I gather there are differences from the mother tongue?

 

[Andyd]

Sorry, the gun was proofed in 1976. I will correct the typo.

I lived in France shortly and several years in Haiti. Haitian Creole isn't a recognized language but a dialect, with French, African, and a few English influences. The grammar is simple at most and with knowledge in a Latin based language, especially French, is easy enough to learn.

I read Carillo's post and would have given him a like for his informative post that is right on topic but still think that a response in English, even broken English, would have been more appropriate.

 

[BC38]

I am always surprised by the occasional post made in another language. I realize that there are folks on the forum who don't speak English fluently (or maybe not at all) and that is OK. However, Google Translate can do the conversion for them, and out of consideration for the 99.9% of us who don't speak or read other languages, I would suggest using it. That's what WE all have to do if we want to read those posts, and frankly, a lot of people won't bother. So, to reach the vast majority of the intended audience, using the translation tools to make the post just seems like the thing to do. Of course that's just my $0.02

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yes, I would have included the S&W M-39 since the Illinois State Police made it their issue handgun. How many others have seen or handled a SIG 210 ?
A Haitian friend said they go to school in French and speak Creole among themselves.
Leonard Carrillo ? Leo Carrillo was Duncan Renaldo's sidekick in "The Cisco Kid".
On another board a Brazilian apologized for his somewhat shaky English. I told him here we speak Gun.
In Brophy's "The Krag Rifle" the chapter on the Norwegian Krags was written by a Norwegian.

 

[Andyd]

Yes, I would have included the S&W M-39 since the Illinois State Police made it their issue handgun. How many others have seen or handled a SIG 210 ?
A Haitian friend said they go to school in French and speak Creole among themselves.
Leonard Carrillo ? Leo Carrillo was Duncan Renaldo's sidekick in "The Cisco Kid".
On another board a Brazilian apologized for his somewhat shaky English. I told him here we speak Gun.
In Brophy's "The Krag Rifle" the chapter on the Norwegian Krags was written by a Norwegian.

Back when the internet was young, it must have been 1999, one of the administrators on AR15.com was Dutch. Usually Scandinavians and Dutch speak English and other European languages very well since their national TV transmits the shows in their original languages with subtitles. Like this, they get exposed to multiple languages from a young age on.

 

[Texas Star]

One reason why I admire my favorite Victoria's Secret models is that they are multilingual, usually speaking several languages. And I don't mean just Candice Swanepoel and Behati Prinsloo (Levine), whose first language is Afrikaans. Most Dutch-descended South Africans do now speak English, although Charlize Theron didn't. She told Jay Leno that she had to sit in front of a TV here to greatly expand her very limited English vocabulary and to sound American. An agent said he could get her roles, but only if she lost her accent. But Charlize is from a small town on the highveld in the Transvaal, and she heard mainly Afrikaans as she grew up. Behati and Candice grew up in more cosmopolitan areas. Behati may speak German as well as English and Afrikaans, as she's from Namibia, which was once German SW Africa. I think many residents still speak German. Yes, she was with her grandparents in a grocer in Cape Town when discovered by a model scout, but really lived mostly in Namibia. Today, as Mrs. Adam Levine, she lives in the US with her husband and their two kids. (Levine is the singer for Maroon 5.) And one has to listen carefully and know what to listen for to hear the Afrikaans/Dutch undertones in her speech. Candice sounds much different, about half British. I love her accent. She also speaks Brazilian Portuguese, as her fiance is Brazilian and taught her. Both have many interviews on YouTube, not all VS related. Doutzen Kroes's English has been perfected since she came to catwalk fame. But she probably learned some on Dutch TV. As you pointed out, many shows there are broadcast in English.

But some have to learn languages wholly unlike even their own alphabets. I used to know a Czech girl on another board, not gun-related. She wrote impeccable English, which she studied from age 5! And another Czech, who wrote limited fan fiction, said that she was doing her best, in a language very unlike what she knew. Of course, Paulina Porizkova was not just a famed model and actress; she writes children's' books. And as for Petra Nemcova, who fled then-communist Czechoslovakia, coming to the West and appearing on the cover of, Sports Ill. was a culture shock. She did learn English, and now raises funds for her charity to aid children orphaned by natural disasters, like the Thai tsunami that almost took her life and did kill her fiance.

Andy, you and Classic12 and other Germans here (some now American) all use terrific English and I really admire that.

I do recall Leo Carillo being Duncan Reynaldo's pal on, The Cisco Kid TV . Leo in Argentina probably wonders whether anyone here would notice that show-derived name. Been many years since it was on TV.

A Mexican member calls himself Villa's Artillery (in Spanish). THAT may upset some US members, as Pancho Villa is seen here as much a bandit who raided the United States and caused a punitive expedition as he was a revolutionary figure. But I enjoy this member's posts.

Mostly, we get along well here. None of the few members with whom I have differences is other than a US citizen. But I do admire our multilingual members. Still, you're right: if one can, he/she should post here in English. Patvince does pretty well, although he's French. But he's also a professional herpetologist, so if we're talking about any snakes whose common names may vary, he can cite the scientific names. Kurusu (Portuguese) has perfect English. (Hi, Mario, if you see this.)

I like the post above that said we ultimately come here to speak a common language: "Gun!"

Uh, is this what's known as "thread drift"? I guess we should get back to discussing nice 9mm pistols. But Andy, I really do admire your perfect English skills. And the same to Swissman, Classic12, and that other guy whose name I'm ashamed to admit momentarily escapes my memory. We have a couple of other German members whose names I don't recall, as they seldom post. But when they do, they have excellent English.

I don't trust Google Translate. I've seen it make grievous errors. A Czech girl got a message from that medium, and said it so mangled her language that most, apart from some insulting profanity, was unintelligible gibberish.

Oh, well. Back to the actual topic...

 

[shouldazagged]

Nice write-up, Andy.

My vote for one of the all-time greats would go to the pre-B CZ75, which has been copied extensively and used in the armed forces of many countries. I wish I hadn't sold mine.

 

[Andyd]

The CZ 75 has definitely developed into a nice gun, the first ones had a loose hammer unit, leading to excessive creep. This was remedied by German gunsmiths by drilling and tapping the frame and fixing the hammer unit with set screws. While the CZ75 combined many desirable features, like the inverted slide rails it shares with the P210 and the Star 30, the high capacity magazine from the High Power and a decent double action / single action trigger, I still do not consider it a trailblazing milestone in small arms engineering. I suspect that one of the reasons why it got copied so often, is that there was no international patent filed by CZ.

This is a photo of my old CZ that I bought in the late 1980s and kept for almost a couple of decades. The next photo shows the common trigger-creep fix done in Germany by countless gun smiths and the large distributors, like Frankonia and Kettner. The SP-01 in the photo was a Christmas gift to my son a few years ago.