Accessibility, time counts

[fredj338]

I don’t think I’ve seen any type of stats or videos where how people carried (pocket, ankle, OWB, IWB) has made a difference in a successful self defense encounter by a civilian ccw.

The #1 factor seems to be having a loaded firearm on them or very closeby.

The #2 factor seems to be the willingness to use the weapon combined with a mindset not to be victim.

The #3 factor seems to be having a round in the chamber and not having to fumble with controls. Point and shoot.

For all the discussion about needing a 1.x second draw, in the stories and videos I’ve seen posted of civilian self defense encounters (not LEO encounters), I don’t recall any where draw times were a factor.

That may be, but rapid presentation is certainly important in some situations. I was merely responding to the op assertion that pocket carry met that. IF you take hits before you can get your gun into action, you may well win the battle but lose the fight.
Rapid presentation is 2nd to good shooting though. You just have to be fast enough to get first shot off or at least effectively respond to the attack. Even in competition, the presentation is 2nd or 3rd to good shooting. A great first shot hit time may be 1sec, but 1.3 isn't likely to lose the fight.

 

[Mister X]

I think quickly being able to access your weapon is extremely important. There are countless examples of this documented on the Active Self-Protection YouTube channel. For me, pocket carry usually means jacket/coat pocket carry, but I will pants pocket carry on occasion well aware that it comes with certain limitations and distinct overall drawbacks/benefits. I do think considering having to access your gun while in movement shouldn't be overlooked. Also, consider what the most likely threats you'll face will be. I think they can actually vary between individuals due to lifestyle and personal differences.

 

[shell627]

It seems like the solution is obvious: Carry three guns! One on the belt, IWB or OWB; one in the pocket to discreetly have your hand on the gun when in "Condition Orange" situations; and one on the ankle when sitting, kneeling, lying down, etc.

You're welcome.





*FWIW, I think this is the approach Jim Cirillo used.

Well I’m not even close to Jim Cirillo. But that sounds like me at work.

 

[crazyphil]

Un-scientific tests have shown that we can cut our presentation time in
half if our hand is wrapped around the grip when the SHTF. If you can
access your gun and present it in one second, that is good, but half of
that second was getting your hand on the gun.

If you agree, it says a lot for pocket carry because it is not un-natural
to have your hand in your pocket. I don't pocket carry, but I believe
there is a lot to be said about it. I prefer OWB on the belt at 4 to 5
O'clock.

 

[fredj338]

Un-scientific tests have shown that we can cut our presentation time in
half if our hand is wrapped around the grip when the SHTF. If you can
access your gun and present it in one second, that is good, but half of
that second was getting your hand on the gun.

If you agree, it says a lot for pocket carry because it is not un-natural
to have your hand in your pocket. I don't pocket carry, but I believe
there is a lot to be said about it. I prefer OWB on the belt at 4 to 5
O'clock.

Not unscientific at all, easily proved with a shot timer. The issue for the vast majority & pocket carry is they can not have their hand on the gun inside their pants pockets. So maybe pocket carry needs to be clarified; pants or jacket. I wear 501 jeans quite a bit. I can barely get my hand into my pocket with no gun there.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Not unscientific at all, easily proved with a shot timer. The issue for the vast majority & pocket carry is they can not have their hand on the gun inside their pants pockets. So maybe pocket carry needs to be clarified; pants or jacket. I wear 501 jeans quite a bit. I can barely get my hand into my pocket with no gun there.

I wear Wrangler Riggs. Big front pockets. With a shot timer and an IPSC target at 15 feet, I can do a 1 second “A zone” hit with my hand on the pistol in my pocket and around 2.25 seconds with my hands in a fence (I also practice it regularly dryfire).

I get that’s not fast, but from the ASP videos I’ve looked at of civilian self defense shootings, none of them require even that speed.

You either see it coming, but can’t escape it, and are prepared before it happens. Or you’re caught off guard, you’re waiting your turn, and trying to disguise/hide your draw. A three second draw is probably adequate. What seems to be more important than speed is good gun handling, good marksmanship, and a decisive use of force once you draw your weapon.

 

[Mister X]

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9xjyaBaVfew[/ame]

 

[fredj338]

I wear Wrangler Riggs. Big front pockets. With a shot timer and an IPSC target at 15 feet, I can do a 1 second “A zone” hit with my hand on the pistol in my pocket and around 2.25 seconds with my hands in a fence (I also practice it regularly dryfire).

I get that’s not fast, but from the ASP videos I’ve looked at of civilian self defense shootings, none of them require even that speed.

You either see it coming, but can’t escape it, and are prepared before it happens. Or you’re caught off guard, you’re waiting your turn, and trying to disguise/hide your draw. A three second draw is probably adequate. What seems to be more important than speed is good gun handling, good marksmanship, and a decisive use of force once you draw your weapon.

Fair enough, but 2.25sec is dead or severely injured slow if the attack is unseen or rapidly developes as I the vid above. Just sayin , pant pocket carry is not fast at all. It might be sort of convenient, but fast, no.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Fair enough, but 2.25sec is dead or severely injured slow if the attack is unseen or rapidly developes as I the vid above. Just sayin , pant pocket carry is not fast at all. It might be sort of convenient, but fast, no.

If you see it coming, but can’t escape, you can be ready and your counter ambush can be very fast, pocket carry or hip. That’s what’s in the video above Mister X posted.

If you don’t see it coming and someone has the drop on you, your .75 sec quick draw is just as dead or injured as a 2 sec pocket draw. You need different tactics. In the video below, the gun handling isn’t so great, but the tactics are spot on. Looks like appendix carry, but would work equally well with pocket carry. (The action starts at the 1 minute mark)

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcSDVC42DTg"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcSDVC42DTg[/ame]

 

[fredj338]

Well you can believe that under 1sec is just as bad as 2.5sec but I know better. You are right, awareness is everything but pant pocket carry, just not ready enough imo.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Back in the summer, Iggy and I was kicking around the idee of a 'half break front' holster for
advancing the ease of draw from the seated position.
One that didn't wrench the rotator cuff and was secure. It turned out to be fast too boot.

This is one of the proto types, I've been carrying this one for
several months now and find it to be all we had hoped for.

And no, this is not an advertisement for sales of the above.

.

Another version of this concept was Wilson Combat's Kydex "Tactical Assault" Holster..... with the front cut to below the ejection port on a 1911.

Mine are for my Beretta 92s but he offered them for 1911s and M&Ps.

 

[Lightfoot4]

Pocket carry just won’t work for me. Guns are too big, pockets are too small/tight, etc. Plus it’s slower for me unless my hand was already on the firearm. I carry inside the waistband, at about 3:00 to 3:30 position, with a low riding High Noon holster. It’s the best for me.

The Original Poster did have a good point in thinking about how you carry and how a scenario can unfold. I’ve adjusted my carrying techniques and training based on case studies of actual events. The Active Self Protection website is an excellent site for viewing real videos of real encounters. How fast some of these go down was a real shocker for me. And it caused me to stop carrying with the safety on. Even though I trained flipping the safety off as I brought the firearm up, I found that if I really stressed or hurried, sometimes I would fumble a bit. Only a fraction of a second when it happened, but sometimes you don’t have a fraction of a second to lose.

Something to think about.

 

[keith44spl]

Another version of this concept was Wilson Combat's Kydex "Tactical Assault" Holster..... with the front cut to below the ejection port on a 1911.

Mine are for my Beretta 92s but he offered them for 1911s and M&Ps.

.

I may incorporate another spring, one in the bottom to assist the pistol on the draw.

Jest make it jump into yur gunhand.......


.

 

[Mainsail]

I've never been able to pocket carry in jeans....for me it's real slow going digging a J-frame out from a Wrangler pocket!......

Yeah, I don't know what kind of pockets the pocket-carry proponents have, but none of my pockets could fit a normal sized handgun.

In any event, I can sweep back a fleece vest (or untucked shirt, or jacket) and draw from an OWB holster considerably faster than someone could draw a pocket gun, and I'd end up with a more formidable weapon once I did.

As a bonus, the draw speed is not noticeably slower when I'm seated. It's a little tougher when seated in the car with the seatbelt on, but manageable and easy enough to remedy.

 

[fredj338]

Pocket carry just won’t work for me. Guns are too big, pockets are too small/tight, etc. Plus it’s slower for me unless my hand was already on the firearm. I carry inside the waistband, at about 3:00 to 3:30 position, with a low riding High Noon holster. It’s the best for me.

The Original Poster did have a good point in thinking about how you carry and how a scenario can unfold. I’ve adjusted my carrying techniques and training based on case studies of actual events. The Active Self Protection website is an excellent site for viewing real videos of real encounters. How fast some of these go down was a real shocker for me. And it caused me to stop carrying with the safety on. Even though I trained flipping the safety off as I brought the firearm up, I found that if I really stressed or hurried, sometimes I would fumble a bit. Only a fraction of a second when it happened, but sometimes you don’t have a fraction of a second to lose.

Something to think about.

If you train & practice with a safety, it will never be forgotten, regardless of stress, imo. I have carried a 1911 a lot but also shot them a lot, like 8K-10K rds a year, 30y worth, 1000s or presentations, I never forget the safety. Early on I would fumble it but it comes off on the draw stroke, well before I am pushing out to get to the trigger. If your gun is designed for a safety, like a 1911, that is really how is should be carried. You do NOT want to be that guy that shoots himself in the fight.

 

[CB3]

Back in the summer, Iggy and I was kicking around the idee of a 'half break front' holster for
advancing the ease of draw from the seated position.
One that didn't wrench the rotator cuff and was secure. It turned out to be fast too boot.

This is one of the proto types, I've been carrying this one for
several months now and find it to be all we had hoped for.

And no, this is not an advertisement for sales of the above.

.

I don't believe I understand what I think I see.

Is this a 1911 in a leather pocket holster designed to draw easier from the seated position?

 

[BAM-BAM]

If you train & practice with a safety, it will never be forgotten, regardless of stress, imo.

I agree..... I've carried since 1978; almost daily since the mid-80s trained as much as possible, shot PPC,IDPA and USPSA.......

Last winter I had the opportunity to did some situation simulation training with our local PD.....



In one of my simulations; a driver got out of his pickup during a routine traffic stop; my "partner(computer simulation)"had interacted with the Driver and gone back (off screen) to run the driver's licence. I was on the passenger side watching the passenger; gun in my holster flashlight in my left hand ..... I could only see the Driver from a few inches below his shoulders after he exited the pickup and moved along the bed. ...( to make a long story short)......

I never saw the gun until he brought it up above the truck bed... to shoulder level.... to shoot at my partner.........

I have no recollection at all of drawing..... just yelling "gun" as I acquired a flash sight picture and pulling the trigger.....he got off one shot then I shot him 3 times..... before he went down. ( these Computer simulations are way coooool....during the review they could show me the hits)

His girlfriend/partner jumped out of the cab with a gun and got off one shot as I shot her twice......... her gun was pointed high and over my left shoulder.

Two observations..... time really does slow down...... and one reacts as one trains....... no time for a reflective thought process ...... take in data and react or die.......

Other civilians doing other simulations who had little or no prior training........ tended to freeze and die while trying to think about what to do.

 

[Mister X]

Alternatively, there are force-on-force instructors who have stated they see even supposedly well-trained individuals failing to get their manual safety disengaged in pretty much every class they teach.

 

[CB3]

I thought we were discussing pocket holsters. Didn't catch the transition to belt mounted holsters. Whew!

 

[keith44spl]

I thought we were discussing pocket holsters. Didn't catch the transition to belt mounted holsters. Whew!

Pocket holsters works for some folks, not so well for other folks.

Accessibility is somewhat restricted when seated, hence the open front belt slide.

Not to be splittin' hairs here.....It just seems to work for two old hands.


.

 

[cheeseinwisconsin]

Just want to say that I appreciate all the feedback so much.Democracy at it's best. People with different points of view contributing different opinions for the good of all. I'm learning a lot from everyone's respective views.

 

[Muss Muggins]

The OP hasn’t posted since he/she started this thread. Wonder what his/her position on this discussion is . . .

 

[snowman]

I would like to add that he is one fine feller. I got a holster from him years ago after talking to him on the phone.. He sent it before I could get to town to buy a MO to mail to him.
There was a note with the holster.. "Try this, if you don't like it, give it to somebody and I'll send you another one."
His holsters are dandies.. I used the one I got from him for years.

I received very similar treatment from Mr. Mika -a humble, good man and a fine craftsman. Thank you, Bob; as with Iggy, I've been using my holster all the years since you made it for me. The breadth of it is such that the hand has plenty of room to grasp the gun, and draw quickly and safely.

Regards,
Andy

 

[Old cop]

I pocket carry almost all the time due to back & hip problems. During cold weather I may shift the gun into my jacket pocket, then back to my jeans pocket, depending on circumstances. The only time I’d consider ankle carry is on a long car trip. I also have the ability to practice pulling the gun from my pocket & shooting 5 rounds, 3 yards, at my range.

 

[delcrossv]

I think there must be a CCW carrier in the design department at Carhartt. I have one of their coats and the inside pocket is a perfect fit for a J frame. Easy to draw too.

I agree, most jeans are too tight, but dress slacks or khakis are loose enough for effective pocket carry with small guns. And with a pocket holster, it looks like a phone or wallet.

 

[MG34/bar]

I too have one of Bob's pocket holsters, and it works well in my vest pocket. Some other posters are correct that size and weight are important with either pocket carry or ankle carry. I use a S&W model 342 (pre-lock) that only weighs a bit over 12 oz. loaded, and I don't think that I would use a larger/heavier handgun in that manner (in the pocket).

 

[DevilDog72]

nice

Back in the summer, Iggy and I was kicking around the idee of a 'half break front' holster for
advancing the ease of draw from the seated position.
One that didn't wrench the rotator cuff and was secure. It turned out to be fast too boot.

This is one of the proto types, I've been carrying this one for
several months now and find it to be all we had hoped for.

And no, this is not an advertisement for sales of the above.
This is just an experimental prototype of holster. Pat. Pending

.

Looks kinda like a Thad Tribeca only improved for a fast simi open front draw. I likes it.

I have been an OWB for a long time, pocket and IWB are not for me. I do use a paddle rig at times when light jackets are worn for a J frame that I think is the fastest of all my holsters.

 

[prplbkrr]

Late to the party here.

You wanna pocket carry a full size 1911? Get a pair of these.
That 5" gun ain't gonna fit in a jeans pocket, but will disappear in these.

Dress around the gun!!

Men's Fire Hose Cargo Work Pants | Duluth Trading Company

I prefer the Firehose Flex pants. Not as durable but lighter weight and more comfortable.

To the naysayers, do not criticize/call BS 'til you check these pants out. I have 1st hand experience with these (hell, it's all I wear) and the look I get at the range is priceless when I pull that 1911..... out of my pocket!!

 

[Mainsail]

To the naysayers, do not criticize/call BS 'til you check these pants out.

I'll say nay.

No way I'm paying $70 for pants. The $25 jeans I got at TJMaxx look great, and I can put a full size 1911 in a proper belt holster on the starboard side.

 

[prplbkrr]

Sure enough you can carry a 1911 in a holster. Lotsa people do it.

The point of the thread is about pocket carry. Focus man, focus. Stay on topic.

Dressing around the gun means spending some cash.