Accidental Discharge

[Rammer Jammer]

All 3 of the examples from the OP are negligent discharges.

I had an accidental discharge when the sear on my Ruger MKIII broke and the gun went full auto when charging it. Because I was mindful of the 4 Rules all rounds went into the dirt at the outdoor range and the only thing damaged was my gun that broke itself.

 

[kbm6893]

Excuses are like butt holes, they don’t feed the bull dog when
somebody is dead. Being a Firearms Safety Instructor is not some high degree and it isn’t space science. There would be even less excuse for a negligent discharge for those whose job it is to pay attention. There is no excuse for it. At the very least one who causes death or injury with a firearm should be banned from ever owning one.
Gun Safety is 100% common sense.

People with your level of confidence are the prime candidates for ND’s. Bill Jordan was a combat veteran and participated in many real world shootouts. If it can happen to him, it can happen to you. Thinking you’re immune from them is fantasy. Until you’re on your deathbed, you can’t claim to have never had an ND.

 

[MelvinWalker]

People with your level of confidence are the prime candidates for ND’s. Bill Jordan was a combat veteran and participated in many real world shootouts. If it can happen to him, it can happen to you. Thinking you’re immune from them is fantasy. Until you’re on your deathbed, you can’t claim to have never had an ND.

Correct...Until just two years ago, I could have crowed the same thing like "I have never had a blah, blah".

It never happens when you think it will. As I said, just ONE second of not paying attention and you can get an AD/NG..Look closely at the chamber, but get distracted about what is in the tube, ASSuming things are one way and they aren't, etc.

Just like car accidents...Somebody is usually at fault, but it is still both an accident and negligence.

 

[BigMuddy]

I guess there are no automobile accidents, just negligent driving. Still happens though no matter what you call it.

So when I flipped the safety off of my Remington M700 and the gun fired was it negligence?

 

[petepeterson]

With handguns, I have three practices that are inviolable. 1- Once I have loaded a handgun, it goes in a holster and is secured. 2- I never holster an unloaded gun. The holster is a reminder to me and an additional step when I draw the gun from it that it is loaded. 3- Whenever I pick up a handgun or draw one from a stored holster, the first thing I do is check its status, even if I drew it from a holster or knew I just unloaded it.

All three of these events describes above were not accidental discharges, they were negligent discharges because the first rule of firearm safety was violated.

I do the same. If it's in a holster, it's loaded. If it is not, it is unloaded.

My grandfather was Sammy Safety when it came to guns. To the point of annoyance.
When I was 13, he almost took my foot off unloading his '97 Winchester 12-gauge. Most of you know these will "slam-fire." I never saw a more remorseful man. He didn't speak for hours.

 

[Smithpride]

I had an intentional discharge that turned into an accidental shooting. Happened in probably 2006 or 2007, so late 20’s age for me. The brothers and I were on the deer lease and went to the river to do some plinking. We were sitting on the bank, legs in front of us, shooting down into the far bank and water.
I forgot about scope offset. I looked down through the scope at my target and pulled the trigger on the 10/22. There was an immediate burning sensation in my big toe. I knew immediately what had happened. We rushed off the property and about an hour later pulled into the ER. Got to triage, pulled my boot and sock off expecting to see lots of blood and bones. Nope! Just a nice .22 caliber graze hollowing out the top of the front of the toe.
Asked if they had to report it to LE. Yes, they did. I said, I’m outta here. Went to the parent’s house, doused it alcohol and bandaged it up. A few days later it was fine.
So, now am I not only keenly aware of the muzzle’s direction, but also scope offset on any long gun. Still have the “hole-y” boots and don’t get razzed about it too much anymore.

 

[sigp220.45]

Skeeter Skelton fessed up to at least three ADs - he shot a hole in his Mom’s bedroom floor with her .380 Colt, he shot the toe off his boot with a Colt SAA, and he killed a mirror in his home with a .32/20 Colt.

Even the Colonel himself, Jeff Cooper, told a story about one of his - he was sitting in his home office, picked up an empty .45 1911 (of course) and dry fired it at a telephone pole outside. Yep. New window required, and no word if he hit the pole.

I’ve had two: a Winchester Model 12 pump from a pawnshop fired the first time I chambered a shell. Straight in the air and it never happened again. I suspect the firing pin was stuck forward and fixed itself thereafter. The other was a used Browning Hi-Power 9mm. The first round was intentional and downrange. The next three in very rapid succession weren’t intentional, but were downrange.

Stuff happens. Keep the muzzle pointed the right way and it will usually work out.

 

[Drm50]

People with your level of confidence are the prime candidates for ND’s. Bill Jordan was a combat veteran and participated in many real world shootouts. If it can happen to him, it can happen to you. Thinking you’re immune from them is fantasy. Until you’re on your deathbed, you can’t claim to have never had an ND.

If it happened to me it would be neglect on my part. That’s the point, there are no accidents. Firearm has no brains, if safety fails or negligent discharge due to mechanical failure it is operators responsibility to have muzzle pointed in safe direction. There is no excuse other than negligence for “ accidents”. The word itself is an excuse. One using worn firearms should know there is chance of discharge without pulling the trigger. Even the 97 Winchester in slam fire mode requires finger on trigger. Unless sear is worn so bad it slips from operation. You can look for all the excuses you want, still boils down to human error. I’m 75 and pretty confident I’ll cross the finish line without killing or injuring any innocent bystanders.

 

[DARE]

Unintentional Discharge

I typed accidental discharge into my browser. Brought up a Wikipedia article titled "Unintentional Discharge." Said there were two types. Accidental discharge and negligent discharge. Said forensic firearms examiners typically use more simplistic definitions limited to only two categories: unintentional discharge (no mechanical malfunction involved) and accidental discharge (mechanical malfunction involved).
I'm a simple guy, so will refer to these events in the future as Unintentional Discharge. None of my examples involved a mechanical malfunction.
I usually learn something here. Thanks for the interesting discussion.

 

[glowe]

Following all the advise above I add another. I NEVER dryfire anything!!!!

 

[DARE]

My dad thought dry firing was OK. Several people asked him if dry firing was OK. He said, "I don't know" , have not dry fired any of mine more than 50,000 times.

 

[Bald1]

I think it’s weird that Jordan, Skelton, Cooper and nowadays the Gunsite guy are held in such high regard. Like any and everything they say or do is irrefutable. Who’s to say what’s wrong and what’s right when it comes to shooting. Different things work for different people. As for being involved in shootouts. Ok but again who’s to say someone doing it different would have had worse results. Everything is subjective. If I’m not comfortable in a “weaver stance” and my stance gets better results, then my way is better for me. A lot of these “experts” nowadays come across as blow hards. Sorry for going off on a tangent but this has bothered me for a long time.

 

[desi2358]

I'm a great believer in checking and double checking any firearm being handled for ammunition. Years of working in gun stores pounded that firmly into my head (even more than it already was). I cannot count the number of times people brought loaded guns into the store for sale or trade. No tolerance for people sweeping gun barrels around either. Have been around too many cases of guns going off at gun shows as well because someone had a loaded gun where they shouldn't.

There are cases where a mechanical failure causes a gun to fire when it shouldn't but the vast majority of unintended firings are because someone pulls the trigger on a gun. A gun that turned out to be loaded but wasn't checked.

I have encountered mechanical failures where a gun went off when it shouldn't, usually discovered when loading the gun. A mechanical failure can be deadly but is not a threat if the basic rules of safe gun handling are being followed. Point the gun in a safe direction when loading. Working as a gunsmith I have repaired a few guns that had such issues (broken sear, stuck firing pin, etc.) but no one was hurt because the owners were following that basic rule.

 

[Hair Trigger]

I limit my dry fire to times when I am alone at the range or in the back yard pointed in a direction away from the neighbors, and I limit how much so as not to damage my gun.

My closest call for a ND was back in the 1980's. I was at a friend's house and he had a Ruger MkII .22 and I think I'd asked if I could look at it. It was lying on a table next to his chair where he watched TV. He picked it up and pointed it toward the front door that we were standing near and had no more said "I don't think it's loaded" while he turned it to the door and pulled the trigger. It fired and the bullet shattered the window pane in the door and luckily (?) embedded itself in one of the posts holding up the porch roof. Scared the hell out of us both, as we were face-to face and about three feet apart with the pistol between us. I got numb and tingly it scared me so bad.

I have never forgotten that, I can still see it happen like it was a minute ago, and it has always made me extra cautious, which when you think about it, is how we should always be anyway.

 

[USBP SW]

Once established, habits are hard to break. One in particular is the takedown procedure for many pistols, like Glock. Close the slide on an "empty chamber" and pull the trigger. The key to this being an empty chamber. I always checked two or three times to be certain the chamber is empty before pulling the trigger. This can be a problem with other firearms when you get accustomed to automatically closing the action and pulling the trigger, even letting the hammer down manually. I taught my good friend how to reload, he wanted to check to see if the round would chamber, he closed the slide on his Colt 1911 and was going to let the hammer down, the hammer slipped and perforated my basketball. He felt awful because he had an unintentional discharge, not enough to replace my basketball but he was embarrassed. I told him that I had an extra barrel that I used to check chambering, for rifles, I have Wilson chamber gauges.
I acquired a couple of chamber gauges for pistol calibers later. Experience is a great teacher, especially, when you can learn from the mistakes of others. Great topic!

 

[Autonomous]

I’m a newbie to this and I’ve only been shooting for a year, But the last thing I wanna do is get too happy and confident.
There is still an element of fear I have for these things, And I never want to go away.

My buddy, that first took me shooting, told me when holding a gun, Think of it as a laser that is always on, so wherever you are pointing it, it is burning a hole.

You have a healthy attitude. As an older guy that has worked in some dangerous jobs, I've seen what complacency can do.
Experience, confidence, age and especially hubris all contribute to it. Guarding against complacency is a lifelong process.

I like your buddy's quip.

 

[glowe]

I wonder why no charges were filed against Jordan? Did he keep his job? Granted this was not the technology age but c’mon someone died. Was he untouchable because he wrote books? This is the first I’ve heard of this. On the surface it looks like two tiered justice. But again, I know nothing about it. Hopefully someone here can explain the aftermath.

As written by the son of the person Bill killed the story goes like this:

Bill Jordan was showing a pistol, a 357 Magnum, to another man. They were in Bill's office at the headquarters of the San Diego Sector in San Ysidro, CA. The gun was unloaded initially, and Bill was demonstrating how he drew and fired. He then reloaded the gun and put it into a desk drawer.
The conversation continued, and forgetting he had loaded the gun he took it out of the drawer, aimed it at the wall and fired. My father was sitting at his desk on the other side of that wall. The bullet went through the wall and hit him in the head. He died about 3 hours later. There was no wrongful death suit, or anything like that.


I also do not have much admiration for Elmer Keith who's claim to fame was shooting the hottest ammunition possible out of guns never designed for that use. Second, to state he was an immodest man is an understatement.

Two of close calls were reviewed by Chauncey Thomas, past editor of American Rifleman magazine, who cuts to the chase in his response, sparing little restraint, stating, “It is a plain case of an oversized bullet being driven out of an undersized cylinder hole by an overcharge of powder, all due to heap bad reloading and Mr. Keith’s own fault.” He goes on to say the bullet is far too soft for any revolver.

Chauncey reports, “Here are the ‘disgusting details’ Caliber of bullet average about .458” and weight about 259 grains with grease. Mixture of metal, very soft. Far too soft for any revolver in full load. Cylinder opening is .452” (This is too small even for factory loads).”

Powder
“Weight of powder, as sent to me, 32 grains. Powder sifted into three grades, equals 23 grains F.F.G., 2 grains about F.F.F.G. and 5 grains nearly as fine as talcum powder or wheat flour. Its floured condition indicates it was compressed heavily in the shell, or that friction in the can has floured it considerably.”

Round Two?
In another incident, Thomas explains how Elmer blew up another gun shooting 300-grain bullets sized .457”. “Several years ago, I warned Keith about this very thing of using No. 80 rifle powder in pistol cases. Keith was shooting .45-90 bullets weighing 300 grains and sized .457”. He came near killing himself then. This time, he got only blood poisoning. If he does not reform, he will get sooner or later a permanent case of lead poisoning, or his searching friends will pick him up with a blotting paper. I publish this with his consent.”

 

[Autonomous]

You have a good point about writers lionizing themselves and creating many fans that knew no better in the time before the internet.
Sure, it happens now but it is easy to find others' opinions.
I remember reading motorbike, car, sailing, shooting, skiing, etc. writers like they were gospel. Now I understand why the old heads were/are so skeptical.

 

[sigp220.45]

If your gun goes off due to a mechanical failure, its an accident.

If you kill somebody because you weren’t paying attention to the muzzle direction, its negligence.

Not all accidental discharges are negligent.

Negligence is a lawyer word. For a bunch of guys that hate lawyers you sure throw it around a lot.

 

[kbm6893]

If it happened to me it would be neglect on my part. That’s the point, there are no accidents. Firearm has no brains, if safety fails or negligent discharge due to mechanical failure it is operators responsibility to have muzzle pointed in safe direction. There is no excuse other than negligence for “ accidents”. The word itself is an excuse. One using worn firearms should know there is chance of discharge without pulling the trigger. Even the 97 Winchester in slam fire mode requires finger on trigger. Unless sear is worn so bad it slips from operation. You can look for all the excuses you want, still boils down to human error. I’m 75 and pretty confident I’ll cross the finish line without killing or injuring any innocent bystanders.

Yeah. It was human negligence. Mine surely was. But you’re human so you’re not incapable of having one. And my ND didn’t cause a death or injury. It still was an ND. Just because nobody got hit doesn’t change that. Look at range ceilings and walls. I remember at least three or four bullet holes in the precinct locker room. I was right next to the cop who thought his old duty .38 wasn’t loaded and it was. Struck the edge of a locker. Nobody got hit but surely could have.