Accuracy is coming: Apex M&P Barrels

[Randy Lee]

I find that very hard to believe. I'd have to see them shoot 10 shots at 50 yards. Some of the best custom 1911's won't group that well at 50 yards. It is not common for a pistol that groups 1" at 25 yards to shoot a group twice as big at 50 yards. Usually the groups at 50 yards are much bigger. Of course if Apex is just shooting 3 shots at each distance, it is possible to get those shots to group that small once in a while.

Hello,

Actually we shoot 5 shot groups from the Ransom at 25 yards and at 50 yards. We shoot 5 round groups for a couple of reasons:

The first is that of time use. Until we have our new range facility built, we have to use a public range which is only open Thursday through Sunday. Depending upon the number of shooters, the bench space and time is at a premium. The shooting periods are also only 20 minutes long, so between initial set up of the Rest, proper seating of the firearm into the mounting panels via live fire for 5 shots, the actual time we have to shoot each gun becomes very limited. Also keep in mind that like the US Modular Handgun System trials, we use slide mounted sights to align for each round fired. My eyes aren't what they used to be, so eye strain can set in pretty quickly.

The second reason is that for our purposes, a 5 shot group is still statistically relevant for our application. 10 round groups only increases ammo consumption and the probability of larger groups due to frame or fixture shifting. In CA, since we can only have 10 round magazines, anyone who knows how difficult it is to stuff that 10th round into the magazine will understand what a pain it is. Fortunately we will soon be in a free state...

We did all our initial testing at 50 yards when we were developing our barrels, using the same sighting procedures as we do for 25 yards. This was to prove that our barrels would exceed the accuracy standard set forth in the MHS trial specs (their target is a 4" circle at 50 meters). Our barrels would consistently shoot better than 2" at 50 yards. We even compared factory and other aftermarket barrels for comparison. Our best non official group was .593" at 50 yards. I say non official because the target clearly shows the 5 shot group, however there is a 6th round on the paper that we cannot account for. This group had to be thrown out because we could not determine the origin of the shot. My suspicion is that another shooter on the line hit our target. But even with that 6th round, the group opens up to 1.19" @ 50.

I decided to stop the 50 yard testing after all the data showed that with proper ammunition, our gunsmith fit barrels would consistently shoot sub 2" at fifty. The sighting for each shot at that distance increased my fatigue, plus we were constantly having to run back and forth to remove and reset fresh targets for the next test gun. It hot old pretty pretty fast.

Our best group at 25 yards measured .313" for the 5 shot group with one police officer's duty gun. Our average was realistically about 3/4" for the 5 shots @ 25.

I engineered our barrel based upon the physics of what I saw happening within the M&P design. That is why we can make the claims we do. No one thought a polymer framed striker fired pistol could go toe to toe with high end 1911s, but ours can.

 

[Randy Lee]

Went to the range again today, 20 rounds at 25 yards.
I have installed every apex item available for my S&W MP 9mm Performance pro L couldn't be happier with the results and I have put almost 5,000 rounds thru it.

I do have a question for you Randy, the stock coating on the slide in some areas is down to the metal, what do you recommend for re coating the slide. I would like to have mine recoated. It still needs a little help to go into full battery but not like it was when I first installed the apex barrel. But like I said I have put almost 5,000 rounds thru it.

Thanks again!!!

That's some great shooting!

H&M metal processing has done the melonite finishing for Smith in the past and may still be. Talk to them. It may be that your slide just needs to be refreshed with metal oxide (hot dip bluing). I'm not a finishing expert so I would defer to them.

 

[Srruger762]

That's some great shooting!

H&M metal processing has done the melonite finishing for Smith in the past and may still be. Talk to them. It may be that your slide just needs to be refreshed with metal oxide (hot dip bluing). I'm not a finishing expert so I would defer to them.

Thanks!

I'll give them a call.

 

[Srruger762]

I find that very hard to believe. I'd have to see them shoot 10 shots at 50 yards. Some of the best custom 1911's won't group that well at 50 yards. It is not common for a pistol that groups 1" at 25 yards to shoot a group twice as big at 50 yards. Usually the groups at 50 yards are much bigger. Of course if Apex is just shooting 3 shots at each distance, it is possible to get those shots to group that small once in a while.

Back in March we where at the range had a few bullets left so I tried 50yards off hand (no rest or bench) I was very pleased with results (pic below @ 50yards) With more practice at that yardage I can see me getting tighter groups (around 2") it takes more accuracy on my part but from what I'm getting at 25 yards I sure can't blame the pistol.

My buddy has a high dollar 1911 he can't come close to my groups now. I'll tell him don't get frustrated just need more practice.

 

[BE Mike]

Hello,

Actually we shoot 5 shot groups from the Ransom at 25 yards and at 50 yards. We shoot 5 round groups for a couple of reasons:

The first is that of time use. Until we have our new range facility built, we have to use a public range which is only open Thursday through Sunday. Depending upon the number of shooters, the bench space and time is at a premium. The shooting periods are also only 20 minutes long, so between initial set up of the Rest, proper seating of the firearm into the mounting panels via live fire for 5 shots, the actual time we have to shoot each gun becomes very limited. Also keep in mind that like the US Modular Handgun System trials, we use slide mounted sights to align for each round fired. My eyes aren't what they used to be, so eye strain can set in pretty quickly.

The second reason is that for our purposes, a 5 shot group is still statistically relevant for our application. 10 round groups only increases ammo consumption and the probability of larger groups due to frame or fixture shifting. In CA, since we can only have 10 round magazines, anyone who knows how difficult it is to stuff that 10th round into the magazine will understand what a pain it is. Fortunately we will soon be in a free state...

We did all our initial testing at 50 yards when we were developing our barrels, using the same sighting procedures as we do for 25 yards. This was to prove that our barrels would exceed the accuracy standard set forth in the MHS trial specs (their target is a 4" circle at 50 meters). Our barrels would consistently shoot better than 2" at 50 yards. We even compared factory and other aftermarket barrels for comparison. Our best non official group was .593" at 50 yards. I say non official because the target clearly shows the 5 shot group, however there is a 6th round on the paper that we cannot account for. This group had to be thrown out because we could not determine the origin of the shot. My suspicion is that another shooter on the line hit our target. But even with that 6th round, the group opens up to 1.19" @ 50.

I decided to stop the 50 yard testing after all the data showed that with proper ammunition, our gunsmith fit barrels would consistently shoot sub 2" at fifty. The sighting for each shot at that distance increased my fatigue, plus we were constantly having to run back and forth to remove and reset fresh targets for the next test gun. It hot old pretty pretty fast.

Our best group at 25 yards measured .313" for the 5 shot group with one police officer's duty gun. Our average was realistically about 3/4" for the 5 shots @ 25.

I engineered our barrel based upon the physics of what I saw happening within the M&P design. That is why we can make the claims we do. No one thought a polymer framed striker fired pistol could go toe to toe with high end 1911s, but ours can.

Can you clarify using "slide mounted sights to align for each shot fired"? I have a little experience with the Ransom Rest and once the gun was settled into the rest, I never realigned it for each shot. I am confused. I have recently heard of some souped up Springfield Armory XD's which have shot well at 50 yards off hand, so yeah I know that plastic pistols can be made to shoot well at that distance, but I'm still skeptical about the 2" groups.

 

[Randy Lee]

Can you clarify using "slide mounted sights to align for each shot fired"? I have a little experience with the Ransom Rest and once the gun was settled into the rest, I never realigned it for each shot. I am confused. I have recently heard of some souped up Springfield Armory XD's which have shot well at 50 yards off hand, so yeah I know that plastic pistols can be made to shoot well at that distance, but I'm still skeptical about the 2" groups.

Unfortunately, the polymer frames and urethane grip adapters allow for slippage which is why you don't see a lot of positive accuracy results from the Ransom with poly guns. Steel framed 1911s don't suffer from the same effects. I have been mounting a Trijicon RMR sight for most of my testing now because of the eye strain. What it showed me was that any external force on the frame can affect the alignment of the gun relative to the target- including the trigger actuating attachment on the Ransom. That is why for each shot I use the optic to align the gun on the test target. This is also the way the shooter is going to use the pistol anyway.

The fact is that no one thought that a polymer framed, striker fired pistol with service tolerances could even approach the mechanical accuracy of a custom 1911, yet we have data that proves otherwise.

I invite skepticism and in many ways I am a skeptic as well. But I also know from testing that sub 2" groups are possible.

 

[TacticalReload]

Can you clarify using "slide mounted sights to align for each shot fired"? I have a little experience with the Ransom Rest and once the gun was settled into the rest, I never realigned it for each shot. I am confused. I have recently heard of some souped up Springfield Armory XD's which have shot well at 50 yards off hand, so yeah I know that plastic pistols can be made to shoot well at that distance, but I'm still skeptical about the 2" groups.

From what I've seen, XD's are hardly the most accurate pistols (quite the contrary). I wonder what modifications were done to make it accurate at those distances.

 

[Angus46]

Ported apex barrel???

Randy,

Appriciate you contributing to this thread. I want an apex barrel bad. Just want one that will have ports to match the holes in the slide. Do you guys have plans to make one that will have porting to match the holes in the slides of factory ported guns?

 

[clarkz71]

I'm not skeptical at all.

Randy is a real genius with firearms function issues.
The Glock "brass to face" fiasco when the Gen4 came out
was cured with his FRE extractors.

I'm sending Apex my M&P 9 for a gunsmith fit barrel.

Watch the video and see the science behind the design
There's a lot to it.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKz9QarKa80[/ame]

 

[BE Mike]

From what I've seen, XD's are hardly the most accurate pistols (quite the contrary). I wonder what modifications were done to make it accurate at those distances.

The modifications were quite extensive from what I gather. The son of the poster here shot a bullseye target at 50 yards, one-handed, with a much modified XD and scored a 99 out of 100. The 10 ring is just over 3". Here is a quote from the AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) shooter's father: "Being my son is Adam Sokolowski I know quite a bit about his XDM. His private XDM was purchased from the custom shop. The other is AMU issue but not much was done to it. Barrel was welded and fitted and trigger job done but I understand it's easy to do.
Last year all of the AMU shooters were shooting the Beretta. The 2 times he won the NTI it was done with the Betetta. This year he won 3 XD's at Perry.
I'm told by shooters at the club that drop in barrel, trigger and sights are available that will make the gun shoot as good as the one Adam is shooting." Springfield Armory has been a long time supporter of the shooting sports and especially the National Matches, while S&W has long since withdrawn their support from Camp Perry. BTW, I have never owned an XD nor S&W M&P and have no connections whatsoever with either company.

 

[Randy Lee]

For what it's worth, in my experience the XDs are by far more consistent in the accuracy realm out of the box than most M&P9s. This can be explained by how the back end of the barrel locks up, and the dwell time.
Welding up the barrel bottom lug and hood work well with the XD design, but the benefits of doing this on the M&P are not as substantial.

The 2015 National Police Shooting Championships Production Semi-Auto Division Champion won that title using a FS M&P9 with our barrel. He was originally going to use his XDM, but the accuracy gains he saw at 50 yards swayed his decision.

Before the M&P was on the horizon, I used to compete with the XD. I even owned one of Rob Leatham's personal guns that had the barrel welded up and fitted by the Custom Shop. The gun shot well, however I could not get it to group as well as what we can do with the M&P today.

 

[Randy Lee]

Randy,

Appriciate you contributing to this thread. I want an apex barrel bad. Just want one that will have ports to match the holes in the slide. Do you guys have plans to make one that will have porting to match the holes in the slides of factory ported guns?

Unfortunately we don't have plans for ported barrels at the moment.
You could contact Mag-Na-Port, as I know they are equipped to locate ports in the correct locations.

 

[Ron AZ]

For those of you who are familiar with the grouping problem reported in this thread ... is it only on the full size M&P 9? How is grouping with the M&P 9 Compact?

 

[dben002]

I hear this more than I should .....I never had accuracy problems with my Shield 9 and I have no problems with the Shield 45.

Could it be some don't have the discipline to maintain proper breathing, grip and trigger control to be able to be accurate over an extended shooting session.

It takes concentration to accurately fire any weapon even after you have sighted the weapon in

A new barrel will not correct these deficiencies should one have them.

 

[Holmes375]

I hear this more than I should .....I never had accuracy problems with my Shield 9 and I have no problems with the Shield 45.

Could it be some don't have the discipline to maintain proper breathing, grip and trigger control to be able to be accurate over an extended shooting session.

It takes concentration to accurately fire any weapon even after you have sighted the weapon in

A new barrel will not correct these deficiencies should one have them.

The issue with the full size M&P 9mm pistols is very well documented and has been known for some time. It's a hit or miss problem relating to the design of the barrel lock up, dwell time, etc. Some pistols exhibit it dramatically while many do not. Even those that do not exhibit terrible accuracy seldom shine ion that department. The M&P 9mm full size has never been known for its accuracy out of the box.

Randy of Apex fame has commented upon this in the past and explains it quite well. It is not a phantom that afflicts less skilled shooters and it has nothing to do with the Shield series.

My M&P 9c (and most others I've worked with) out-shoot their full size counterparts handily. Others have noted the same. The compact models do not seem to suffer the same problem with their shorter barrels.

 

[Ron AZ]

The issue with the full size M&P 9mm pistols is very well documented and has been known for some time. It's a hit or miss problem relating to the design of the barrel lock up, dwell time, etc. Some pistols exhibit it dramatically while many do not. Even those that do not exhibit terrible accuracy seldom shine ion that department. The M&P 9mm full size has never been known for its accuracy out of the box.

Randy of Apex fame has commented upon this in the past and explains it quite well. It is not a phantom that afflicts less skilled shooters and it has nothing to do with the Shield series.

My M&P 9c (and most others I've worked with) out-shoot their full size counterparts handily. Others have noted the same. The compact models do not seem to suffer the same problem with their shorter barrels.

Thanks for answering the question Holmes375. (Post #394 is the classic reason I asked for a response from someone like you familiar with the full size problem.)

 

[Holmes375]

I should also make clear my belief that a full size M&P in 9mm of normal or average accuracy makes an admirable home defense or personal defense weapon. The real world and the competition world are two completely different realities.

The M&P 9 full size points well, handles recoil with aplomb and will more often than not deliver minute of bad guy at statistically illustrated distances.

If you get a stinker, hold S&W's feet to the fire until they make it right. Send that puppy back on their dime a dozen times if you have to. Painful? Yes. But they owe you a reasonable firearm which is what you purchased in good faith.

 

[clarkz71]

The issue with the full size M&P 9mm pistols is very well documented and has been known for some time.
It's a hit or miss problem relating to the design of the barrel lock up, dwell time, etc.
Some pistols exhibit it dramatically while many do not.

This is very true, I was lucky and got a good one

Mine will put 5 rounds in a 1" square (Sighting in target)
from a rest @ defense range of 21 feet.

Shooting technique is very important though with the stock
trigger. Unfortunaltly mine is 8.5 lbs. Apex FSS going in soon.

 

[Holmes375]

This is very true, I was lucky and got a good one

Mine will put 5 rounds in a 1" square (Sighting in target)
from a rest @ defense range of 21 feet.

Shooting technique is very important though with the stock
trigger. Unfortunaltly mine is 8.5 lbs. Apex FSS going in soon.

Amen! Many (most) of the factory triggers do nothing for the making of nice little groups.

5 in to 1" at 7 yards with the factory pull switch? You, sir, are a shooter and certainly deserving of a nice Apex trigger

 

[clarkz71]

Amen! Many (most) of the factory triggers do nothing for the making of nice little groups.

5 in to 1" at 7 yards with the factory pull switch? You, sir, are a shooter and certainly deserving of a nice Apex trigger

Thanks, but it's probably shooting since 1988 that helps.
If you don't get marksmanship in that amount of time.... lol

A good trigger does help, my Gold Cups would just drill
the bull at any indoor range distance.
Around me limited to 50 feet.