AD's

[Retired W4]

Here's a subject I rarely read about on the gun forums, and that is Accidental Discharges. I believe the reason you don't hear about them is most people involved are too embarrassed to admit having one. I had purchased a cheap 22 pistol while living in Texas and went out in the country to shoot a few beer cans along the road. The little wonder jammed and in the process of trying to clear it, it went off and the bullet went right through the windshield of my truck! Dumb, I know! The more you are around guns the chances of an AD goes up. I believe the main reason they happen is complacency. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but experience alone is not the answer. It's constant awareness, and safety, safety, safety. BTW, that little story I told was not my only AD. I've done more than one dumb thing in my life, but I think about that stuff all the time and that increases my situational awareness. Be careful out there, and have fun.

 

[Alpo]

I think the reason that you don't hear too much about 'em is long about post number three or four on the thread, someone will say that "there is no such thing as an ACCIDENTAL discharge. It's a NEGLIGENT discharge, and if you weren't such an idiot it wouldn't have happened."

People get tired of being told they're a fool by somebody they don't know, that wasn't there so he don't know what happened, but by-damn he knows what happened anyway, because he is the all-knowing forum guy.

I see these threads start, often, but after the "it's not accidental, it's NEGLIGENT" post, no one else seems to want to say anything.

I've got this shelf, just inside my front door. I used to come home, and as I came in the door I would put my gun on the shelf. Worked fine for a K-frame. Little bit narrow for an N, though.

So I come in one day and I put my 1937 up on the shelf, and I'm about halfway across the living room when I hear a "BAMF" kinda noise behind me. Turn around and look. Gun on the floor. Fell off the shelf. That musta been the noise - it hitting the floor. Sniff sniff. What's that smell. Go pick up the gun. Bottom of the holster is blown out (Uncle Mike's nylon holster apparently makes a good silencer).

Fortunately it was loaded with the Speer 200 grain flying ash trays, and did not make it through the solid wood front door.

I was lucky. It was pointed away from me, so I didn't get shot. It didn't make it through the door, so the little old lady across the street did not get shot.

It tried, though.

Entrance hole.

Almost exit hole.

It does make you be a little more careful.

 

[Rule3]

OK, I'll be the first to say there are no accidental discharges they are negligent.

In the OP's post (no offense meant at all) the gun was obviously not pointed in a SAFE direction when you attempted to clear the jam. That is not an accident.

Alpo,

No one is calling anyone an idiot, You yourself stated the shelf was too small for the gun you placed on it. How is that an accident. An accident is something that happens that you have absolutely no control over. In both cases the person had control.

 

[PALADIN85020]

Whatever you call it, I've had only one. Fortunately, I was observing rule two - not letting the muzzle cover anything I was not willing to destroy.

I had just purchased a 1945-dated P.38 pistol, knowing full well that many of this vintage were sabotaged by slave labor. However, the price was right, and I bought it from a long-time friend at a gun show who allowed as how he'd never shot it.

In my den, I decided to see if it would feed properly. I put a live round in the magazine, applied the safety, pointed the gun at the floor of my rather junk-laden closet, and jacked the round into the chamber.

BANG!

Oops. Upon examination of my closet, I discovered that I had put a hole squarely through a nice American WWI "pie plate" helmet!

I'd call that a negligent discharge, but due to equipment failure. I should have realized that guns made in that year, the end of the war, should be examined by a qualified gunsmith before even loading. Thank heavens I had the muzzle pointed at something inconsequential.

I took the gun back to my friend and convinced him to take it back - I told him I wanted a P.38, not an MP-38! We still laugh about it.

It can happen to anyone - even, sad to say, to yours truly!

John

p.s. That helmet does kinda look more salty with the bullet hole in it.

 

[gunlovingirl]

I'm fortunate in that I've never experienced an accidental discharge. As far as there being no such thing as an "accidental" discharge, yes, they are accidental. Accidental means not planned or expected. "Negligence" is usually the "cause" of the accidental discharge, but it's still accidental. I would bet that neither Alpo nor Retired W4 intended or expected their incidents to happen. They were accidents. Careless, probably. Negligent, maybe. Fortunate, absolutely. Because no one was hurt. But I'd also wager that both are more cautious now! There's no such thing as being too careful!

 

[Armyphotog]

I haven't had one of those since I was a teenager.

 

[quneur]

I've never had a mishap. I always make sure the ammunition is separated from the gun before fooling with it. For my HD gun, I leave the loaded magazine in the bedroom and take the gun to the living room to clean, fool around, etc. And I always make sure there isn't a round in the chamber. My long guns are always unloaded as I check/clean them after every outing and I don't like dry firing any of them.

The only gun I'm comfortable with playing around with in the house is my H&R starters pistol. That one I use to practice my shooting stance, drawing, and playing tacticool.

 

[venomballistics]

the term is Negligent discharge where it is the nut behind the wheel that causes the problem. Accidental discharge also can occur, and are entirely attributed to mechanical faults and conditions.

 

[deadin]

OK, I'll be the first to say there are no accidental discharges they are negligent.

Maybe..... Recently a friend of mine had about as close to an AD as you can get. He had a .22 target gun (HS 103 Supermatic Trophy) go off on him when he chambered a round. (slam fire). The gun had belonged to his wife's former husband (deceased) and had been in storage for over 20 years. Turns out that former hubby had been messing around with various springs in order to get the trigger pull down. He had trimmed the hammerspring by about 4 turns. That brought the trigger down to around 22 oz. Unfortunately it had also weakened the hammer strike to the point where it couldn't overcome the firing pin spring, so he replaced the fp spring with something that looked like it came out of a ballpoint pen. This occasionally jammed the FP and, viola, slam fire. I replaced the springs and the trigger is now at around 34 oz. and ignotion is reliable again.

Any negligence involved would have to be put on the former owner. It was an AD as far as my buddy was concerned. There was no way he could have known this was going to happen. (He did have it pointed in a safe direction. It only put a hole in a cedar chest.....)

 

[Rule3]

Yes, I will agree that there can be "accidental" discharges if it is totally due to mechanical failure. I should have been a bit clearer. If the weapon is pointed in a safe direction then not much negligence can occur.

Even Johns example (who I have great respect for) should he even have chambered that round inside the house pointing it into the closet?? I have done a similar thing (without it going off) but I go outside and point the gun at the ground while trying to see if it feeds. I hate drywall repairs

 

[Retired W4]

OK. I'll tell a story on a good friend of mine (name withheld), who was showing his sister, with his wife standing there, how to field strip a Glock 21. Of course, on a Glock, you have to pull the trigger, AFTER you insure the gun is clear, before the slide comes off. He swore he checked the chamber, but that bullet went right through his kitchen window. I suspect he may have had a loaded magazine in the gun when he pulled his slide back. The chamber may have been empty while he had the slide back, but, well you get the point.

Like I said earlier those thing stay with you, and hopefully make you a safer gun owner. He was lucky no one was injured or killed. My point was, no matter how experienced you are, don't let complacency slip into your life. We must all learn from our mistakes, and the mistakes of others. Also, I didn't start this thread so those who have never done anything wrong, or made a life threatening mistake (say, in a car) could go after those of us who are human. Stay safe, and have fun.

 

[Evil Dog]

Negligent or accident.... yes I've launched a couple of bullets when I had no intention to do so. Fortunately the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction.... well, sorta safe, the microwave took the worst of it.

 

[blujax01]

I haven't had one of those since I was a teenager.

AAAHHHH-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!

You owe me a keyboard. Seems I just spit coffee into mine.

 

[old bear]

Alpo, you were correct, post number three.. It's a good thing we did not have enough time to get a pool going.

 

[Rule3]

Alpo, you were correct, post number three.. It's a good thing we did not have enough time to get a pool going.

Actually post #8 is more correct. You still can get a poll going, I don't know why you are discharging in the "pool"

 

[scooter123]

IMO the difference between an AD and an ND is WHERE the muzzle is pointed when the gun fires. If you have a slam fire when the gun is targeted downrange or pointed into a clearing barrel, it's an AD. If you have a slam fire that results in your putting a round into your foot, that's an ND. Doesn't matter what caused the gun to fire, what matters is where it was pointed. Quite simply, if you are doing anything with live ammo in the gun, it's your responsibility to make sure that muzzle NEVER covers anything that you aren't perfectly willing to put a bullet into.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

One of my Iron Rules is that I used practice rounds to check feeding, practice with my speed loaders, etc. Another Habit I Have Formed is to count the rounds removed from a revolver AND visually inspect the chambers. Twice. With my tube fed 22 rifles I remove the magazine follower, empty the tube, then clear the action.
Safety is a matter of a state of mind AND carefully cultivated habits. One Army Ordnance man told me when he worked on an M1911 the first thing he did was remove the firing pin.

 

[TACC1]

AD vs. ND's

Rather than getting defensive about the condemnation of AD's
as actually being ND's, it looks to me that bad-mouthing an
"accident" is another way of re-inforcing safe gun-handling. I've had
four ND's over the years, and have been fortunate in where the
bullets impacted. The last three were using a K-22. Grip was too
big, and trigger lighter than I'd ever experienced. I might escape blame
for the first time, but it took two more for me to sell the gun. Those two
are on me. I won't even discuss the first time. I do remember every
one of them, though. TACC1

 

[P&R Fan]

I had a thread on this several months ago. I have never had an "accidental" discharge, but I once had an "unintentional" discharge. Almost 20 years ago I was shooting clay pigeons with a friend. I was using a M12 Winchester I had owned for about 15 years that was built in the early '50s. I had shot it several hundreds of times without incident. I powdered a claybird and brought it down from my shoulder with my finger OFF the trigger (Rule #3). When I worked the slide action it went off. It was a situation where a part had failed and kept the firing pin forward in the bolt, touching off the newly chambered round. It was an easy fix for a local gunsmith. My friend was standing about 10 feet away when this happened. Had it been pointed at him, he would be dead, but I had followed Rule #1 on auto-pilot, and kept it pointing up in the air in a safe direction. I hadn't even consciously thought about it, it was just habit, and it kept my friend alive.
Jim

 

[oldman45]

Sorry but there are Accidental Discharges. I have worked several over the years. An Accidental Discharge may cause a Negligent Injury or Death because I worked a few of them as well.

The one that stands out in my mind most is where a man about 28 yrs old, experienced hunter and well accquainted with firearms had gone hunting one morning. He had a pump 12 ga shotgun. Living in the country, he was accustomed to putting his shotgun across the seat of the truck. It was warm out and the truck was not air conditioned. He returned home and went to get the gun out from the passenger window (the passenger door had a lock issue). As he lifted the barrel to pull it over to get a grip on the forearm, the gun went off. The impact hit him full force in the stomach just below the sternum. He was fortunate and lived but only after months of surgery and hospitalization. Initially everyone thought the trigger had snagged on the upholstery or something. He denied ever moving the gun.

I got possession of the gun and began testing. Using a pencil inserted in the end of the barrel, I could lift the gun to about 80 degrees and it would discharge. This was video taped with the gun loaded and using string tied around the end of the barrel. I returned the gun to the maker and they did their own testing and found the same results. Then they tested other similar guns and learned that several of them did the same thing.

This was an AD. Yes, the man should not have left the gun loaded but don't we all have loaded guns. No, the man should not have been reaching through a window to get the gun by pulling the barrel but how many times have we reached for our gun from an unusual angle. So the man was negligent but the gun should not have fired using the negligence the man did.

 

[wheelyfun66]

I've been fortunate to have never had an AD/ND, but am in no way complacent, and always try to stay aware of muzzle direction, etc..

I have seen several Negligent Discharges, as part of my experiences in the military.

One back in the 1980's, where a soldier got shot in the back while on the firing line! (Medevac chopper ride, and he lived)

And several while serving in Iraq (incompetent soldiers, who were tired and beat down after sleepless nights and long patrols)

I do feel a bit safer now that I have given up the Glock for a double action revolver...I know, finger off trigger and it won't go off...but the Glock action certainly makes it easier to have an unintentional discharge!

 

[quneur]

There are AD's. Walking in the field and tripping for instance. There was a story in WA where a hunter had rested his gun against a tree and the dog knocked it over. The gun went off and hunter was shot.