AGEING AND GUN METAL

[feralmerril]

Many times we are cautioned to either not shoot or load down old guns because the metal is "old". I can understand the fact that the heat treating wasnt up to todays, or maybe even non existant. Will people a 100 years from now caution the owner of a model 29-2 to load them down because the gun is old? In other words, even if the powder is exactly the same formula will it be thought or true that the metal has weakend strickly because of age even if the gun has been preserved 100%?

 

[chief38]

When a gun is forged, the molecules are aligned in a certain way which gives it its great strength. A bunch of things happen over time.

1) There is something called metal fatigue that weakens the metal over time.

2) There is wear, stress and stretching of the tolerances from being fired - the more it is fired, the more distortion there is.

3) In the real world the formula for the powder will likely have changed, and so will the make-up of the components in the ammunition.

4) There will be new developments in metallurgy resulting in smaller, lighter weight guns with metals and or polymer combinations that have greater strength than what is currently available.

5) That is why ammo makers are very cautious to "dumb-down" ammo to be safe with older and tired guns. Unfortunately, when you do have a modern gun of great strength, a lot of the ammo that is available is not up to the potential of the gun you shoot it out of. That is exactly why Companies like Buffalo Bore, Speer, etc. have such a great following. Their stuff is just so much better than the products that are available form the "Big Three" ammo Companies (for the most part).

Don't worry too much, because UNFORTUNATELY I doubt the public will be allowed to own forearms in 100 years (probably a lot sooner) so the metal fatigue and powder developments will be a moot point. By the way, I hope I am wrong about this statement!

Chief38

 

[Revolver-time]

Many times we are cautioned to either not shoot or load down old guns because the metal is "old". I can understand the fact that the heat treating wasnt up to todays, or maybe even non existant. Will people a 100 years from now caution the owner of a model 29-2 to load them down because the gun is old? In other words, even if the powder is exactly the same formula will it be thought or true that the metal has weakend strickly because of age even if the gun has been preserved 100%?

Cycle any metal enough times and it will break. Trouble is, it is hard to determine what is enough. I use to fly a Piper Arrow and I had over 8500 hours on that aluminum airframe. Getting a little concerned about the high hours, I called Piper and they said to fly it to 10,000 hours and then call back and we will tell you to go another 10,000 hours!

Guns are not airplanes of course. We all do hear stories about frames cracking, forcing cone issues, flame cutting and other structural issues.

 

[feralmerril]

"Hath the sword lost it`s temper?"
Perhaps I should have asked the question thus: Will a model 29 or super blackhawk, found NIB heavly greased in a dry attic 100 years from now, unfired and still pristine, be weakend souley because of age?
Does the principal of carbon dateing enter here?
Another way of putting this, were we to find a unmolested colt single action army in its shipping carton made in 1874 unrusted, never turned, unfired, would it be as safe to shoot with the exact same jigger of black powder and bullet?
I get the used ones haveing been worked and stretched etc, honest I do! What I am suspicious of, is people automaticly parreting phrase`s of things we have always heard without real testing. A thousand times someone has found a old gun, ask advice here and other sites and invarably get the same old sage advice. I am one of those old guys that doesnt automaticly belive everything I hear.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I guess it depends on what we are using for powder in a hundred years.

 

[dant]

the answer is NO..................it is the "use of and what is 'used'.." in the firing of the gun..................it may be "work hardening", (metal pounding on metal), or it may be improper, higher load range stuff " ( nitrocellulose powders versus black powder AND then in the future what will they come up with????) 100 years from?? none of us will care.............we'll ALL be 'gone' to the big gunshop in the sky.......

 

[s&wchad]

Interesting question.

I just got off the phone with one of our hunting partners who's a chief metallurgist working in the auto industry. According to him, age has no effect on the engineering properties of steel, assuming that any heat treating was done properly. If the metal was overstressed at some point or heated above 300F, all bets are off.

Polymers (plastics) are a completely different story. They "bleed off" plasticizers/elastomers over time and become brittle.

 

[feralmerril]

I am pressing this. Look, many here have claimed fireing their model 10 or whatever 20,000, 40,000 times or whatever. I have some pristine safe queens, several unfired and some maybe might have seen 100 or so rounds through them. Maybe a faint turn line. Do you mean to tell me it would be unsafe to shoot them with todays ammo a 100 years from now? Thats just whats being told to people that have posed the same question on this site and others when they find grampas almost unfired triplelock, .32 or .44 DA or whatever without wear or rust. I have some antique old ammo that was made for those guns as do many of us. I know it would shoot the price down if fired etc, but to say the gun has weakened just from age and no use or rust is a stretch for me.

 

[WR Moore]

There's several issues here: first issue is "does steel lose strength over time?" That's be definitively answered above as NO! At least so long as corrosion isn't a factor.

Now comes the qualifiers.
If the weapon was abused by loads generating excessive pressures, extreme wear due to extensive use or being heated to a point that the steel may have lost it's heat treat, then yes, the weapon may be unsafe, but that didn't have anything to do with age. It has to do with conditions of use.

The other question has to do with the quality of the materials. A 1911 pattern pistol made in 1911 is not going to be made of materials of the same strength as a 1911 pattern pistol made in 2011. The same is true for revolvers. You'll note that S&W cautions not to use +P ammo in any weapon that doesn't have a model number stamped on the frame under the barrel tenon. That doesn't have anything to do with the effects of age on the material, just a recognition that the older stuff may/was not made as well.

In fact, that excuse was the generally accepted reason that American ammunition made for foreign cartridges was loaded down ( 7 & 8 mm Mauser being prime examples). That the ammo/arms companies wanted you to have a reason (reduced power/range) to buy their products rather than a much cheaper mil-surplus rifle was swept under the table.

 

[TheHobbyist]

I am not an expert by any means; nor do I play one on T.V.

But, my thought is, holding all else equal (ceteris parabus), if a gun is maintained in even "good-to-great functional condition" it would be fine with the same type of ammo as made in its respective day.

 

[Catshooter]

ferral,

You are asking a metalurgist question. Technical in the extreme. Very few people can actually answer the question.

Like post #2 says that 'metal' weakens over time. This might be true, but does it apply to the steels that you're concerned with?

Post #3 says that if you cycle any metal enough times and it will break. Then he refrences his aircrafts aluminum frame. And it's true, for aluminum, but not for steel.

You might be better served by asking this Q here:Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web - Powered by vBulletin There are some very savvy dudes there.


Cat

 

[jag312]

I have a trap door Springfield made in 1878. I shoot it frequently with black powder handloads. I can only put in about 65 grains of FFg with the new cartridge cases, and I use a 405 grain lead hollow base bullet lubricated with SPG. I don't use smokeless powder in it, not even reduced loads. I feel that in another 130 years, with reasonable care, that rifle will still be shooting.

 

[Catshooter]

feral,

Actually, after thinking about your question for a bit more, I think Smith and Wesson have answered it. Don't they tell us not to shoot +P in non-model marked sixguns? I've never seen them tell us not to shoot any gun older than ______ years, have you?

Maybe that's the answer.


Cat

 

[scooter123]

Cycle any metal enough times and it will break.

This isn't quite true. Steel and Titanium both have something called the Fatigue Limit. When you cycle these two metals below the Fatigue Limit something very interesting happens. The metal actually become more resistant to fracture, stronger, and the Fatique Limit actually increases slightly.

It's why back in the late 60's and early 70's drag racers and dirt trackers used to scrounge around junkyards for engines out of Station Wagons. Generally, at that time Station Wagons were driven gently by mom's hauling their kids to piano lessons and the like. End result was that the crankshafts and connecting rods out of those old grocery getters could take being built into a Full Race engine a lot better than brand spanking new parts. However, that came to an end when GM discovered that there actually was a market for racing parts and released the famous Pink rods for the SBC and a matching forged crankshaft made with 4140 steel.

Bascially, take a model 29 and shoot 20 or 30 thousand rounds of 44 special through it and you'll probably have a model 29 that can take a really hot 44 Magnum without any worry about the frame stretching.

 

[medalguy]

I agree. I have several old rifles that I shoot pretty regularly, an 1878 Swiss Vetterli, and an 1896 Krag which gets used a lot more. I use period loads, not modern loads for the Krag, and it has held up just fine.

If you use a load the firearm was originally designed to shoot, or even a lower load, I see no reason it couldn't be fired for many years into the future.

 

[Stevie]

Technology has improved the quality of steel a bunch since the mid 1800's when guns started to be made of steel and not iron.

 

[tops]

I am a member of a group that shoots vintage SXS shotguns. There are many members shooting guns with Damascus barrels. My favorite is a Winchester (M21) over 80 years old and I have been known to shoot a Rem. 1873 10 ga. I also have a J. P. Sauer hammer gun over a 100 years old that I shoot once in a while. We shoot loads that are equivalent to what the guns were made for. Since I haven't ever heard of a gun blowing up at a vintage shoot I don't think it unsafe to shoot old guns. The oldest pistol I have now is a 4 digit 1917 but it works as good as when it was new. (NO, I didn't buy it new.) Larry

 

[Packard]

When a gun is forged, the molecules are aligned in a certain way which gives it its great strength. A bunch of things happen over time.

1) There is something called metal fatigue that weakens the metal over time. ...

I mostly agree with your remarks. I don't agree on the metal fatigue entirely. It is not the age that fatigues the metal but the work it has experiences. I suspect that you meant that but it was not clear from the post. My observations are as follows:

We've all seen metal fatigue. If you pick up a wire coat hanger and bend it back and forth at the same point over and over the metal will get warm, then get hard, then fatigue and the crack. But the hanger can lie dormant in the closet for a millennium and never fatigue. It has to experience repeated stress. Age alone will not cause metal fatigue.