Air Force Combat Masterpiece

[oldafsp]

Odlafsb
is that a "Dun Hume" belt ?

Nope, this belt was made under contract for the Air Force. Most likely by Cathay Enterprises or Gould and Goodrich (S&W's contractor) in 1980.

Prior to that, the garrison belt, 2 inches wide was the standard issue. The garrison belt was a joke. Designed for the Class A uniform back in the late 1940's and used until 1980.

There was a concerted effort amongst the Security Police Instructors between 1977 and 1979 to get the gear up to par with civilian counterparts.

I was proud to be part of that group of NCO's that brought the changes about.

Shown below is the makers stamping for the AF.

And the aforementioned garrison belt. Which was really a horrible way to carry your weapon and gear for a shift.

Hope this was helpful. I have numerous examples of all the gear we used over my career. Some of it new and unissued. I guess I'm just an old pack rat.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Nope, this belt was made under contract for the Air Force. Most likely by Cathay Enterprises or Gould and Goodrich (S&W's contractor) in 1980.

OldAFSP:

Very nice rig. From the CAGE code on the belt I can tell you that it was actually made by Hunter Corporation. These SP belts were supplied by several different manufacturers, including those you mentioned.

BTW, do you have a date on when the photo of the female SP was taken and where?

 

[JayCeeNC]

Charlie, not to butt in, but we got our first female SP at my base in Thailand in early 1975. She was the wife of one of our SP's who cross-trained to the SP career field.
That picture from oldafsp looks like Lackland AFB, Texas, probably the first place they used them as the SP tech school was there. And the S&W holster was first issued in the early 1970's.

 

[oldafsp]

That photo came from the Security Police Museum archives. It sure looks like the old Gate 3 off Military Blvd at Lackland.

The first class of 7 women graduated in 1971. The first female K-9 handlers graduated in 1973.

BY 1975, according to AF records, there were just over 1100 female SP officers, all assigned to Law Enforcement (812XX) duties, and over half of them were assigned out of CONUS.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[JayCeeNC]

Thanks, oldafsp.
I graduated from Tech School in November, 1971. I didn't realize we had female SP's that early.

 

[DWalt]

Looks like there are a good many former SFs here. Up until about 5 years ago, I worked at the USAF Gunsmith Shop at Lackland AFB, on the Medina Training Annex. One of my projects which I was not happy about at the time was converting, I think, 10 or 12 of those nice revolvers for ceremonial use by honor guards. That involved welding the barrels, and also welding together the internal parts to make them inoperative. I don't remember any of them having USAF markings. I seem to remember they were shipped to Lackland from Anniston Depot, so it's possible they could have come from another service. All were in excellent condition, except the magna grip panels (they were the type with diamonds) on most required refinishing.

By the way, the picture above may have been taken at Lackland, but I can't think of any view from any of the Lackland gates in my memory looking like that, either at main base or the annex. It does look like there is a static aircraft display on the left side, and there is something similar inside the Medina gate, so it could have been there - but I doubt it. Possibly the Valley Hi gate? Things do change over the years and the view could have been much different back when the picture was taken, as Lackland has changed a great deal. It's officially not even Lackland AFB now - It's Joint Base - Lackland, as all of the San Antonio bases have been consolidated under BRAC - Lackland, Randolph, Fort Sam Houston, and Camp Bullis. Brooks AFB and Kelly AFB no longer exist as military facilities.

 

[oldafsp]

One of my projects which I was not happy about at the time was converting, I think, 10 or 12 of those nice revolvers for ceremonial use by honor guards. That involved welding the barrels, and also welding together the internal parts to make them inoperative. I don't remember any of them having USAF markings. I seem to remember they were shipped to Lackland from Anniston Depot, so it's possible they could have come from another service. All were in excellent condition, except the magna grip panels (they were the type with diamonds) on most required refinishing.

You really know how to make an old Chief cry, don't ya.....

I could be wrong, but I think only the initial order of 5000 Model 15's were roll stamped on the left side of the frame. Many of my duty stations had 15's that were not stamped. Most of the ones in SEA, though were.

And you are so right about how things have changed there. I was back there in '81 and many of the static displays were moved..or gone. Gad, I went through basic in the old WWII barracks section. They had so many trainees that they formed basic flights with overflow and had 1 TI and assistant to 3 of the old barracks.

The main gate at Kelly was a busy place back then. You saluted so much that your arm wanted to fall off.

Welcome to the ranks of the brotherhood here.

 

[DWalt]

You really know how to make an old Chief cry, don't ya.....

I could be wrong, but I think only the initial order of 5000 Model 15's were roll stamped on the left side of the frame. Many of my duty stations had 15's that were not stamped. Most of the ones in SEA, though were.

And you are so right about how things have changed there. I was back there in '81 and many of the static displays were moved..or gone. Gad, I went through basic in the old WWII barracks section. They had so many trainees that they formed basic flights with overflow and had 1 TI and assistant to 3 of the old barracks.

The main gate at Kelly was a busy place back then. You saluted so much that your arm wanted to fall off.

Welcome to the ranks of the brotherhood here.

I think there is only one of the old barracks buildings remaining there, preserved for historical purposes. There was a big demolition project which eliminated many of the WWII-era buildings in the early and mid-1990s. The Annex has really been built up a lot, with an urban training area right inside the gate, plus a MOUT complex at Camp Bullis (not too far from the SF Academy). I'm not too up-to-date as to current Lackland activities, and haven't even been on-base for the last three years. I don't know if the SF museum is still there, I was in it only one time.

 

[austintexas]

My US marked M-15 was issued to a General officer. He lives in my general vicinity and he was allowed to keep his pistol when he retired. I bought my pistol from a fellow collecter that bought it from his son and had it documented.

SWCA 892

 

[florange]

My brother has one that is marked A.F.P.G. and was a 6 inch barrel but has been cut down to a 4 inch. Someone told him the stamping stands for Air Force Precision Grade and some were actualy sent to Smith and cut down to 4 inches. Not sure of a value but it shoots great. Anybody have any info on the A.F.P.G.'s?

J.B.

My brother was a USAF AP/SP in the early 70's. He has repeatedly told me that at one duty station he carried a Model 14, 4 inch. Being a former USAF Supply Officer (67-71) I have doubted him upon occasion...but he knows his firearms, so he must have carried one of these. He did shoot on the pistol team in Europe, so who knows what transpired. I do know that I was unable to purchase my civilian Model 15 until early 1971 due to a shortage of Model 15's. And quite honestly, the vast majority of Model 15's we had in SEA were not "collector quality".

 

[Texas Star]

Did any of you see any M-15's that DID NOT have the target hammer and trigger?

 

[oldafsp]

Did any of you see any M-15's that DID NOT have the target hammer and trigger?

As a matter of fact...yes. Several over my career.

There were several in the armory at Bldg 308 at Griffiss AFB,NY.(416th SPS/LE) We also had DOD Police on that base. That was a screaming PITA.

And here is another question....

I just can't recall if all of the trigger stops were removed on the 15's or not. I don't believe any of the ones I carried had them. Anyone know for sure?

 

[thomasinaz]

Oldafsp; when were you at Griffiss? I was in the 416SPS from 1987 to 1991. Spent some time guarding the NESOCC, with an M15 on my hip. None of the M15s I encountered had a trigger stop.

 

[oldafsp]

Tom,

I was there from 1973-1975. I held dual AFSC's (812/811). Did some time at the WSA there and under the 49th FIS at the alert pods by Base Ops.

Loved the F-106's...they were awesome!

Found this patch on Ebay a while back and got 2 of them. One is on my MA-1 jacket that I got and my wife is putting together with unit patches from all the places I was stationed over the years.

Any of you crewdogs and sky cops want a commerative patch from a decommissioned base you were at this guy makes a wonderful patch. He is a retired AF ATC and a great guy.

USAF BASE PATCHES, SHIPS items in GI PATCHES 4 ALL store on eBay!

 

[smitholdtimer]

Thanks for a very interesting and educational post

This has been a very enjoyable thread to read, thanks to the original poster for starting it and to all those who made contributions with their personal histories and recollections. Great Post!

 

[galena]

oldafsp, Thanks for the link for the base patches, I'm getting my list together to order a few. I just missed you at Griffiss AFB. I was there with OSI Dist 22 from Jul 71-Oct 72 when I PCS'd overseas. I ran a couple of cases with an SP Civilian Investigator, last name of Smith. He was an old timer and he 'learned me a couple of things' They had 166 inches of snow the winter I was there and it wasn't even close to the record. Keep shootin' and check 6

 

[JR78]

I'll jump into this thread......I graduated the SP Academy in 78. They engraved our SSN onto the back of the badge. Also told us it was a controlled item and we would be Art. 15 if misused.

Only the LE troops fired the M-15 at Tech School. I didn't put my hands on one until I got to Clark AB. I remember them not being real accurate with PGU rounds, but it was "cool" carry one.

Crossed trained as a TAC-P in 82 and got lots of time with the M-15. Then M9's in 85.

Retired in 2008 and can still shoot the M9 better than anything else.

 

[Slufstuff]

I am glad this thread was resurrected, some great info. I qualified on the M16 rifle and M15 revolver several times in my USAF years.

I wanted to comment on the origin of M15's in civilian hands. It seems to be "accepted" among collectors that there have been no surplus sales of any handguns since the 60's, but I can tell you for a fact that this prohibition was not followed uniformly by the services. In the early 80's, a fairly large number of USAF surplus revolvers were sold by Warner-Robbins Air Logistics Center in Georgia. I do not know the exact date, but I did buy two like new S&W Victory models from an FFL dealer who had about two dozen Victory Models for sale from that surplus lot. He told me he had a few Model 15's as well, but they had sold out within days of him offering them for sale. He had obtained them from a distributor that had bid and won the entire lot sold by the USAF. He had some copies of release paperwork from the distributor, but at that time I was not a "collector" so to speak, I just liked the nice looking Victory models he had. The Victory's did not carry USAF markings, one I bought was US Navy marked on the top strap, the other a standard US Property marked. I really wish I had found him before the M15's had sold out.

Anyway, there are perfectly legal ex-USAF revolvers out there.

 

[gunblade]

And here is another question....

I just can't recall if all of the trigger stops were removed on the 15's or not. I don't believe any of the ones I carried had them. Anyone know for sure?

I always removed every one I came across as a CATM instructor....training weapons as well as in use and stored weapons that we inspected. IIRC, we were advised to do that as students in the CATM tech school at Lackland which I attended in 1983. I still take them out of my own guns if they have them.

 

[SRAM]

I wouldn't be too hard on Texas Star because what he told you could be true. In my early Air Force days I heard of many guns being stolen and the Feds even busted a local gun shop for buying stolen guns from base airman back then. Concerning statue of limitations, this is the Federal Government we are talking about, not state government, so sending you to jail for having stolen military firearms is up to district Federal Law Establishment. You really don't have to worry unless one day the BATF raids you house or picks up up for something and after the take your guns and run them, they find out you have stolen military firearms. I also doubt that any lost military firearms are any stolen firearms list, just because of the bad PR it would be for the Service.

BTW while I was in Korea attached to an Army unit, all of our pistols turned up missing from the Army Armory and the Army didn't care, because they weren't theirs, and nothing was ever done. So it is very possible that many ex-military weapons out there were taken without permission. Unless you have the actual transfer paperwork, like I have for a 1903A3, you can never be sure. So I think Texas Star's warning to you was just good advice and I would thank him for it.