Alox lubed bullets...learned something today

[Qc Pistolero]

Not a question but just some info passed along;I'm getting ready for a club comp we've put up.Old time calibers(before 1900)shot with lead bullets.
I'm shooting many combos of bullets and powder and I think I've found my load(12.0gr Unique under a 350grLee pb cast unsized in 45-70).But as I was testing some more loads,I found that ''conditionning the bore''really works.I was shooting some alox lubed bullets with usual groups(2 to 2 1/2'' @100 yds).I then tried some alox/beeswax+gc bullets which didn't do so good.I went back to my usual(liquid) Alox lubed bullets and my first 2 or 3 bullets printed very high(4 to 5'' higher).
I repeated the test with the Sharps and then with my Winchester model 64 in 30-30 with again a prooven load(150gr Lee FN which comes out at 153gr lubed,mould beagled for .311'' sized .309'' gc +24.0gr IMR 4064).Same results;alox lube bullets following some gc loads printed hgh for 2 to 3 rds.
Conditionning a barrel with what you shoot is a true fact;like the song said;''now I'm a believer''!
I think that the liquid Alox lube leaves a film in the bore that makes the next bullet kinda glide into the bbl while clinging to the rifling and,if all else being equal,will group decently..Firing a few bullets with gc will scrape off the alox lube thus destroying the ''barrel conditionning''.
My theory, but am open to having it challenged by some other experiment that you might have found otherwise.

 

[BC38]

Seems like a reasonable theory.

Have you ever tried BLL (Ben's Liquid Lube)?

It is approximately 1/3 Alox, 1/3 mineral spirits, and 1/3 Lundmark Liquid Paste Wax.

Lubes great and no stickiness that you get with straight Alox.

I tumble lube by throwing a handful of cast bullets in a butter dish and adding 4 or 5 drops from a squeeze bottle and then swishing them around to give them all a light coat. Dump them onto waxed paper and let them dry overnight. Leaves a nice thin, hard, slick coating on them. Give it a try.

 

[mtgianni]

Just as 22's are lubed different and need to be purged before true accuracy comes so do various lubes. I find when I switch I need to clean the bore, and recondition with 15-20 shots befoe I see what a load will do. I see that with gc or pb bullets.

 

[rockquarry]

Just as 22's are lubed different and need to be purged before true accuracy comes so do various lubes. I find when I switch I need to clean the bore, and recondition with 15-20 shots befoe I see what a load will do. I see that with gc or pb bullets.

There's really no hard rule on this and it's been mentioned often for years. However from mtgianni's experience-based observations, it apparently can happen. I've yet to see it with rimfire or centerfire cast loads using a variety of lubricants.

Perhaps this is an area where some comprehensive experimentation would pay off. Probably depends on the gun as well. Some may be susceptible to switching lubes while others are unaffected.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

Seems like a reasonable theory.

Have you ever tried RLL (Red's Liquid Lube)?

It is approximately 1/3 Alox, 1/3 mineral spirits, and 1/3 Lund Liquid Floor Wax.

Lubes great and no stickiness that you get with straight Alox.

I tumble lube by throwing a handful of cast bullets in a butter dish and adding 4 or 5 drops from a squeeze bottle and then swishing them around to give them all a light coat. Dump them onto waxed paper and let them dry overnight. Leaves a nice thin, hard, slick coating on them. Give it a try.

I can't find(think it's not available up here)Lund Liquid floor wax.What I do to go around the stickiness problem of liquid Alox is that after I've let the solvent dry away,I simply put the bullets in a plastic bowl ,spray a little baby powder on,close the lid,turn the plastic bowl around for aprox 5 seconds and,presto,non sticky bullets.
Corn starch also works fine for that purpose and neither have shown any change in POI or grouping ability.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

There's really no hard rule on this and it's been mentioned often for years. However from mtgianni's experience-based observations, it apparently can happen. I've yet to see it with rimfire or centerfire cast loads using a variety of lubricants.

Perhaps this is an area where some comprehensive experimentation would pay off. Probably depends on the gun as well. Some may be susceptible to switching lubes while others are unaffected.

I always thought that the lubricant used with cast bullets was not important.That discovery sure did change my approach!I will now be more carefull towards that reloading aspect!

 

[BC38]

I can't find(think it's not available up here)Lund Liquid floor wax.What I do to go around the stickiness problem of liquid Alox is that after I've let the solvent dry away,I simply put the bullets in a plastic bowl ,spray a little baby powder on,close the lid,turn the plastic bowl around for aprox 5 seconds and,presto,non sticky bullets.
Corn starch also works fine for that purpose and neither have shown any change in POI or grouping ability.

The powder trick sounds like a good one.

FWIW, I misquoted the product name It is Lundmark Liquid Paste Wax and I got it at Ace Hardware. It was about $10 a quart - and a quart ought to last a lifetime.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

When lube sticks went to $3-$5 a piece I started making my own from commode seals and canning wax or my wife's used "smelly" candles. Mine works perfect!. I get "lube star" on the muzzle and no leading of any significance with handgun or rifle calibers.

 

[Calliope]

45% Johnson's paste wax/45% Lee liquid alox/10% mineral spirits is a good one. I use it to 'butter the bore' in 357 and 45 Colt single shot carbines and double lube commercial bullets that need it.

Make sure it's the original JPW in a tin. Warm it slightly to melt it, add the LLA and MS.

Mmmm.... smells nice.

 

[Psweigle]

I always sprinkle a riny amount of mica powder after i alox. Takes all rhe sticky away, and as a bonus, mica is a lubricant itself. Hope this helps.

 

[Protocall_Design]

The lube I like best is White Label (brand) carnuba wax. It is inexpensive, low smoke, and gives good accuracy.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

45% Johnson's paste wax/45% Lee liquid alox/10% mineral spirits is a good one. I use it to 'butter the bore' in 357 and 45 Colt single shot carbines and double lube commercial bullets that need it.

Make sure it's the original JPW in a tin. Warm it slightly to melt it, add the LLA and MS.

Mmmm.... smells nice.

JPW is not being made anymore.The only one can I could find,the guy(a reloader)was asking $75 for it.
Between 2 coughs,I told him I'd think about it.Still thinking.And will be for a while!

 

[BC38]

JPW is not being made anymore. The only one can I could find,the guy (a reloader) was asking $75 for it.
Between 2 coughs,I told him I'd think about it.Still thinking.And will be for a while!

Yeah, I'm not sure what's up with Johnson Wax in general, but they quit making the liquid paste wax too.

It plus the Alox and mineral spirits were the original ingredients for RLL. When Johnsons stopped making their Liquid Paste Wax, the limited supply caused the price to soar out of sight too.

That is when the experimentation began and how the Lundmark liquid paste wax was determined to be the best available substitute.

 

[Calliope]

Yeah, I'm not sure what's up with Johnson Wax in general, but they quit making the liquid paste wax too.

It plus the Alox and mineral spirits were the original ingredients for RLL. When Johnsons stopped making their Liquid Paste Wax, the limited supply caused the price to soar out of sight too.

That is when the experimentation began and how the Lundmark liquid paste wax was determined to be the best available substitute.

Hmmm, Google says JPW (solid, in the can) is in stock at my local Fleet Farm, might have to go check it out. A few other places are selling it online as well.

It might be discontinued, I plan on stocking up. Thinking about a new Henry single shot in .44 Rem Mag to shoot up a stash of lead bullets.

 

[mtgianni]

The Johnson Liquid wax wass dropped as haz mat required them dropping one of the ingredients and no successful replacement was found IIRC. I think the solid is still made.

 

[sniper]

Johnson's Liquid floor wax is no more. Lundmark is said to be a good replacement. A lengthy discussion of "BLL" (Ben's Liquid Lube) can be found on the Cast Boolit web site.
As Lee Liquid Alox is rather expen$ive, the same stuff, labeled XLOX is available from LS STUFF...home of White Label Lubes, at a lower price. They also offer 45-45-10 liquid lube, which is also said to eliminate or reduce leading, (YAY!) and generally be good stuff.

I have no relationship with LS Stuff, except as a satisfied user of their products.

Before it became impossible to buy, I lucked out and got 2 quart cans of Johnson's liquid floor wax (at his cost) from a guy that bought out a local store's entire inventory, from which I will modify my 45-45-10, or mix up a batch of BLL.

I didn't want to throw anything away, I mixed up a witch's brew of LS 45-45-10, which had thickened, warmed it to make it pour, then poured some in a 200 ml glass bottle with a tight lid. I added some left-over Lee Liquid Alox bullet lube then several milliliters of the Johnson's floor wax. The mixture was still a little thick, so I added some Mineral Spirits to the correct TLAR (That looks about right) consistency. I then relubed a dozen or three cast bullets I had, and let dry. Non sticky, covered the old lube, and should do just fine. If not, I will dump the bottle, and have straight 45-45-10 to work with, or I will mix up some BLL. The two should last me quite a while, seeing it takes just a tiny bit to lube a bunch of bullets. 1 or 200 in a gallon zip Lock, 2-3 squirts, or drops, massage to distribute, and pour them out on a piece of wax paper to dry.

The owner of LS Stuff says if you have too much, put some more bullets in, or use a rag to wipe out the bag, so the bullets just look wet, with a brownish tint, sort of like the Lee lube, only not gooey when it dries.

 

[BC38]

Johnson's Liquid floor wax is no more. Lundmark is said to be a good replacement. A lengthy discussion of "BLL" (Ben's Liquid Lube) can be found on the Cast Boolit web site...

I stand corrected. It is BEN'S Liquid Lube (BLL - not RLL) as I mistakenly posted.
Thanks for the correction sniper. I went back and corrected my first post...

 

[LoboGunLeather]

I have seen significant differences in point of impact when comparing different lots of ammunition in the same firearm. There really is no way to predict what any given combination (firearm, case, primer, powder, bullet, lubricant) will do until it has been tested at the shooting bench.

Just about every type of grease, oil, fat, and wax has been used as bullet lubricant over the years. For at least a generation the factory ammo standard was tallow (rendered animal fat). Waxes of all kinds, singly or combined with others, have been used for over a hundred years.

For the handloader the challenge has always been both effective lubrication and relative ease of application. Some of the industrial lubricants by Alox (there are hundreds of formulations) provide excellent lubrication in cast bullet loads, but cannot be easily applied in original form. NRA researchers determined that the Alox 2138 formula could be mixed 50/50 with pure yellow beeswax to create a product that would function well in standard bench-top lubricator-sizer machines. This provides the individual a means for producing hundreds, even thousands, of lubed cast bullets for his own use.

That is exactly what I have done for over 40 years. In addition, when I have tested a cast bullet load that performs to my satisfaction I stick with that load in the future. For example, I have 4 standard loads for .30-06 rifle that I have been producing for many years, and I know exactly what sight settings (or scope settings) to use with each of those loads in each of my rifles.

I also load a few obsolete and unusual cartridges. Large volume production is not a consideration. The only concern is effective lubrication. For those uses I have found nothing better than pure white lithium grease, available in tubes and grease cartridges at most auto supply stores. The grease is easily applied to cast bullet lube grooves using the fingertips. I can lube 100 cast bullets in under 1/2 hour easily.

Today there are other possibilities. Lubri-sizers with heating elements allow application of the hard lubes that are popular for commercial bullet casting operations. Powder coating offers a new range of performance for home use. Advanced handloaders have developed their own lube formulations, some of which may provide better performance than the old NRA formula Alox/beeswax lube.

Even better, with the internet available to most of us there is no longer much need to spend large amounts of time researching all of the possibilities. Just about everything you may want to know is readily available with a few strokes of your keyboard.

I found products and methods that performed well for me over many years. Today's hobbyists can easily do as well or better with much less time and expense.

 

[sniper]

I stand corrected. It is BEN'S Liquid Lube (BLL - not RLL) as I mistakenly posted.
Thanks for the correction sniper. ...

No correction intended BC38; for all I knew, with the constant experimentation that goes on with cast bullets/lubes/loads, SOMEBODY might have come up with a similar lube. Anyhoo, since the weather is wicked cold here lately, and my old bones and other parts don't tolerate cold as well as they used to, and the great indoor ranges we have locally are just too expen$ive, I'm looking forward to warmer weather to try the aforementioned bullets/lubes/loads. At 80, it is good to have something to look forward to! I'm going to load a few...but, I have to watch it. I already have a few hundred to shoot up before I get to my newer stuff! Izzat FIFO, or GIGO? Be well!

 

[BC38]

No correction intended BC38; for all I knew, with the constant experimentation that goes on with cast bullets/lubes/loads, SOMEBODY might have come up with a similar lube. Anyhoo, since the weather is wicked cold here lately, and my old bones and other parts don't tolerate cold as well as they used to, and the great indoor ranges we have locally are just too expen$ive, I'm looking forward to warmer weather to try the aforementioned bullets/lubes/loads. At 80, it is good to have something to look forward to! I'm going to load a few...but, I have to watch it. I already have a few hundred to shoot up before I get to my newer stuff! Izzat FIFO, or GIGO? Be well!

Not a problem atall - I'm glad you corrected me lest I keep making the same error!

Hopefully it is FIFO - GIGO could be hazardous...