Amelia Earhart Documentary

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Anyone watch the Amelia Earhart program on the History channel last night?
I think they nailed it! ;)
I've always thought that she landed intact and that the Japs captured her! The eyewitnesses are to unbelievable not to be true.
It's not surprising that in the time frame and WWII in the horizon that our government left her go unfounded and abandoned the search!
Now I read in this mornings paper another team doesn't believe this and has set down somewhere else with dogs that sniff out human remains. They believe her and Noonan died as castaways....go figure! ;)
 
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Did not see it,
Will watch it on Comcast On Demand.
Unless they have new conclusive information,
It's still where it's always been - we really don't know what happened.
 
I was watching it, but took a "strategic nap" the last 15 minutes or so!:o

The guys and information seemed credible.

Please tell what was the conclusion if any???
 
The conclusion was that they died in prison, buried in a small cemetery. Upon the capture of the islands by our Marines, two marines were dispatched to this cemetery to remove certain remains, not knowing who they were. The marines who did this were interviewed. Of course this has been denied but other evidence proved that they were there.
The bones have since disappeared?

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It appears the only "new" information revealed were partial images of Fred Noonan and Amelia Earhrt, along with what could have been their plane, in a picture taken in the Marshall Islands.

The "experts" believe the images are real, and establish that Noonan and Earhart were in Japanese custody. Everything else presented as evidence has been known for a long time. The images simply tend to substantiate the previous evidence (or allegations) of Japanese capture and possibly execution of the two Americans.
 
[sarcasm]Come on, the Japanese NEVER executed civilians!

And besides, if they did, FDR "tricked" them into doing it![/sarcasm]
 
As DWalt says the only new info is the picture. The eye witness accounts have been around for a while and its hard to prove or disprove them. My biggest problem is that Noonan was supposed to be one of the best navigators in the country if not the world. He plotted the courses for the china clipper aircraft that spanned the pacific in the '30's. I can't quite believe he could be that off in not allowing for the cross wind as they claim. Thats what dead reconing is about. I do think the Japanese had them along with the hawaii clipper that vanished about a year later on a flight across the pacific. Given the military and political stuff going on at the time it makes sense the US wouldn't want to disclose it broke the Japanese codes.
 
I remember a few years ago I watched a documentary on some old lady that claimed she was Anastasia. It had a ton of "compelling evidence" including an expert that compared her ear shape, something that he touted was as much of an exclusive identifier as fingerprints, to that found in pictures of the young Czarina. The old long lost Anastasia and the true young Anastasia ears were a perfect match when overlaid!

A few years a DNA test was done and the old lady was exposed as a complete fraud. Since then.....give me physical evidence, not blurred photos, or get out! Without some new physical evidence I doubt we will ever know definitively. But hey, it's fun to speculate, expert-olate and percolate and if definitely sells advertising!
 
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We all know she was rescued by "Voyager" on the Star Trek series. Either that, or Gilligan was hiding her in a cave on their island. Maybe it was Batboy? Who knows. People make money with wild claims and making documentaries. Come to think of it, Amelia and Thurston Howell the 3rds wife, Lovey, were never photographed together. Hmmm...
 
Just saw it.
I guess that I find the Saipan accounts to be credible.
On the other hand, there seems to have been a lot of grave digging, bone removal!
Find it interesting that in 'the photo' these are the two Westerners and a number of Island locals.
But no Japanese.
 
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As DWalt says the only new info is the picture. The eye witness accounts have been around for a while and its hard to prove or disprove them. My biggest problem is that Noonan was supposed to be one of the best navigators in the country if not the world. He plotted the courses for the china clipper aircraft that spanned the pacific in the '30's. I can't quite believe he could be that off in not allowing for the cross wind as they claim. Thats what dead reconing is about. I do think the Japanese had them along with the hawaii clipper that vanished about a year later on a flight across the pacific. Given the military and political stuff going on at the time it makes sense the US wouldn't want to disclose it broke the Japanese codes.

Several thoughts....

1. Fred Noonan's real strength as a navigator was in celestial navigation and in particular celestial navigation from an aircraft which is a bit more difficult as you're moving a significant distance in the time it takes to shoot at least 3 stars, and where it can be a lot harder to get accurate readings on a sextant given the livelier motion of an aircraft, in pitch, roll, and yaw.

2. Dead reckoning navigation is only as accurate as the assumptions that you make. The leg from Lae to Howland island was 2,220 nautical miles and in no wind conditions at their 130 kt (150 mph) would take 17.1 hours under no wind conditions (not counting some added time for climb to 10,000 ft at lower airspeed).

The flight was timed for an arrival in the morning about 15 minutes after sun up. However, that meant much of the 2,220 nautical miles, and flight was completed in darkness. As a result their last reliable fix and position report put them 793 nm from Lae on a slight dogleg course that made the minimum distance to Lae from that point 1,485 nm. It also worked out to an average ground speed of 109 kts.

Overcast conditions prevented celestial navigation fixes, and the radio direction finding equipment had some significant issues - including very limited training on the equipment.

Earhart reported that she should be at Lae at 1912 Zulu, and thus it appears she and Noonan assumed a 119 kt ground speed. However they relied on forecast winds that were east - north east for the most of the flight to Howland. Consequently Noonan was expecting winds from roughly 67 degrees, when they were in fact from the east. This meant they were flying at around 130 kts IAS (economy cruise speed after step climbing to 10,000 ft), with an assumed ground speed of 119 kts for 1,485 nm (approx 12.5 hours). That estimated arrival at Howland suggests he assumed winds from 67 degrees at about 12 kts (consistent with the 15 mph forecast), with a 14 degree drift to the right, indicating he needed to fly a heading of 69 degrees, to track on 083 degrees to Howland.

However, they had a 23 degree error in their assumed winds and they were stronger than predicted - from 90 degrees at 24 mph at Nauru, and east at 22 kts (25 mph) at Howland Island. In that case, they were actually flying 18 degrees left of course. Over 1,485 nm that's a 480 nm error, putting them slightly west of Howland and well to the north of Howland.

3. One of the contentions made in the program last night is that no pilot with any sense is going to make a fight like that without an alternate - especially given the imprecise weather forecasts of the period. That's supported by correspondence with Kelly Johnson suggesting that she hold a 190 gallon reserve (enough for 5 hours flight at her expected 38 gph fuel burn At 130 kts IAS and with the actual winds, she would have a 154 kt ground speed flying west - enough to cover 770 nm, or 650 nm, plus a solid half hour reserve to land or ditch. In her original plan, that was more than enough fuel to fly west to the Gilbert islands which ran across her course for 400 miles making them very hard to miss. As alternates go, it's a pretty good one and beats swimming.

However, since she was both slightly farther west than planned and 480 nautical miles north, she was similarly positioned to unknowingly fly west to the Mashall islands, and Milli Atoll is right where she'd be expected to make landfall in the Marshall islands.

4. This 400 miles off course theory is also supported by her radio contacts where she retorted cloud cover, when the only cloud cover in the region was 400 miles north of Howland.

5. When you consider that a plane with a white man and woman crash landing on Milli Atoll has been part of the oral history there since the late 1930's, and no US aircraft is known to have crashed there in WWII, it's pretty compelling evidence. It's bolstered by the finding a piece of aircraft wreckage on Milli that closely matches a section of the nacelle of a Model 10, that would have readily been torn off on landing or in recovery of the aircraft.

6. Then you add in a photo at Jaluit Atoll with people who very closely match Earhart and Noonan - at a time when caucasians were not allowed in the Marshall islands by the Japanese, (other than a very few missionaries), it makes for a very compelling case.

7. When you also consider the same picture has a barge with an aircraft on it that matches the length of the Lockheed Model 10, behind a ship that matches the ship reported to have picked up the white fliers at Milli Atoll, the theory has even more substance.

8. Then you have a couple eye witnesses on Saipan who reported the same ship with the same barge and aircraft at Saipan, and numerous eye witnesses who reported a woman matching Earhart's description on Saipan, and a witness who reports Earhart and Noonan were executed on Saipan. It starts to become a theory that is pretty hard to ignore. These were by the way, the witness Fred Goerner interviewed in the early 1960s - not much more than 20 years after the fact, and at a time when the witnesses didn't even know ho Earhart was or that she was famous.

9. The suspicion that two marines showed up just after the invasion of Saipan by the US to recover the remains of two white people is less definitive. It could have been anyone. But if it was Earhart and Noonan, then it's pretty damning evidence that the US government knew they were held prisoner there. The question then would be when they first knew it.

10. You also have the fact that the US Navy first launched a massive search, and then rather abruptly cut it short 13 days after the last reported contact with Earhart, despite some concerns that the search efforts were flawed, and that Earhart could have made landfall in the Marshall, Phoenix or Gilbert islands and may have still bene alive. One of the reasons the US Navy would do that would be if the US Navy intercepted Japanese radio traffic that indicated Earhart and Noonan had been captured. Naval Intelligence at the time was reading Japanese codes, but or course the US couldn't approach the Japanese and say "hey, we read your radio traffic, and we want them back." In that case, you give the appearance of a good effort, and then pack it in and go home.
 
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I watched and believe the theory - wonder if the Japanese had records or if any of the troops involved are still alive?
 
After the invasion and battle for Kwajalain, my grandfather Eugene F Bogan was the ranking military officer left on the Marshalls. He rescued an island full of natives from a still Japanese held island. He heard the stories from the natives about Earhart and Noonan, and shipped two natives who were first hand witnesses to their capture, to DC to testify to "someone".
I have read every book on Earhart I have ever found, and no word of them going to DC and reporting has ever turned up. There was a South African guy named Oliver Knaags who wrote a book that detailed the Saipan part of the story. He mentioned my grandfather in his book, and may have interviewed him. (Both are dead, so no way to know)
My info comes from my grandfathers papers, which so far have not been published.
 
I recorded it last night because I wasn't able to watch it. I am looking forward to it. I skimmed these comments because I don't want to ruin it. :)
 
I like the story of the Lost Dutchman gold mine better but this one has real appeal. I've read a lot about AE and never really was convinced that they were held by the Japanese. I do believe they set down on an island aircraft intact and died there.

I didn't see the story on the history channel. Just don't watch that much anymore. I would rather read a book, we don't have cable anyway. Trees grew to high to get a dish signal so we're cut off from civilization.
 
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What I do not understand from the show.

If they were supposed to have been in prison and died in prison.

Then how/why were they on the dock with their picture taken. Their plan was on the barge. So on the show they had the theory of how the plan was dragged along the beach to the inland side of the atoll,

So the Japanese just let them hang around for a while before putting them in prison??:confused:
 
During WW2 the Japanese had extensive records. Post WW2 the US was given access. I would expect that to include pre-war years. Like Judge Crater there are fewer and fewer who care. Most could care less about the Kennedy Assassination.
 
My theory is she escaped to Argentina and holed up with Hitler. This is about as believable as the over hyped scenario both these TV Special"disappearances" have received. IMO: The should have had the staff from CNN narrate this as we all know how credible they are!! Apparently the only "new' information presented was a fuzzy picture of an unknown man and woman taken at an unknown location. If I had a dollar for every fake post war picture I've seen of Hitler I could go to a very expensive restaurant for dinner!
Believe what you want; But IMO: They ran out of gas crashed into the ocean and the plane will in all likely hood never be found.
Jim
 
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I saw the show. Very convincing evidence. I have read a couple of books about Amelia Earhart. Some say she wasn't as good a pilot as she was made out to be. Her husband was a publisher by the name of Putnam who is said to have pushed her beyond her capabilities for the publicity. Have also read that Noonan was an Ok navigator (not the best) and had somewhat of a drinking problem.

One of the investigators involved is retired Air Force fighter pilot and aviation author Dan Hampton. He just wrote a book called "The Flight" about Charles Lindberg's transatlantic flight. A very good book. In that book he explains a lot about the navigation techniques used during that time and by Lindberg during his flight. Very rudimentary by today's standards. Thus the explanation of missing Howland Island in the show makes a lot sense.
 
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