An Early Post-WWII Commercial M&P

[DCWilson]

This six-inch M&P was probably shipped in April or May of 1946. [UPDATE: I am informed by the S&W Historian that the revolver was shipped sometime in June of that year.] The serial number, S820116, is within the first 10,000 shipped after the retirement of the V from the late war and immediate postwar SV prefix. Box, stocks and all the usual revolver parts carry the same number.

The only blemish on the gun is some sort of ID number (driver license, maybe?) scratched on the butt with what must have been a needle: Y56441. The perpetrator of this defacement also managed to make a couple of longer and less obviously purposeful marks before laying down the tool he had chosen for his artistry.

The box has the serial number in pencil at one end of the bottom surface and the stamped notice "MADE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" at the other end. The only extra item accompanying the revolver is the company-provided penny postal card soliciting buyers' opinions on their new Satin Blue finish.

Only recently have I come to feel a deeper interest in the company's products from the last year of the war and the first year of its changeover from exclusively military production to the conventional mixed commercial production in which it had last engaged some four to five years earlier.

Preview: I also recently added to the safe S819540, which was shipped to a Los Angeles distributor on April 3, 1946. This M&P was subsequently modified with a slot-mounted drift-adjustable rear sight and a front sight that somewhat resembles a Patridge blade, but has a grooved rear surface that is slightly inclined toward the muzzle. I will be posting some pics and notes about this one in a few days.

 

[larryofcc]

This six-inch M&P was probably shipped in April or May of 1946. The serial number, S820116, is within the first 10,000 shipped after the retirement of the V from the late war and immediate postwar SV prefix. Box, stocks and all the usual revolver parts carry the same number.

The only blemish on the gun is some sort of ID number (driver license, maybe?) scratched on the butt with what must have been a needle: Y56441. The perpetrator of this defacement also managed to make a couple of longer and less obviously purposeful marks before laying down the tool he had chosen for his artistry.

The box has the serial number in pencil at one end of the bottom surface and the stamped notice "MADE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" at the other end. The only extra item accompanying the revolver is the company-provided penny postal card soliciting buyers' opinions on their new blue finish.

Only recently have I come to feel a deeper interest in the company's products from the last year of the war and the first year of its changeover from exclusively military production to the conventional mixed commercial production in which it had last engaged some four to five years earlier.

Preview: I also recently added to the safe S819540, which was shipped to a Los Angeles distributor on April 3, 1946. This M&P was subsequently modified with a slot-mounted drift-adjustable rear sight and a front sight that somewhat resembles a Patridge blade, but has a grooved rear surface that is slightly inclined toward the muzzle. I will be posting some pics and notes about this one in a few days.

Dave, I have # S 819469 shipped 6-5-46 to the Mershon Co. Glendale, CA. The grip people. Funny thing about mine is that it has period stocks with the solid blue stock circles and the hole for the domed screw. The stocks are numbered to the gun. It also is a 6" with purple box numbered to another gun. Big Larry

 

[Wingmaster]

Very interesting. Any idea when they switched to the gold box?

I have S 943386 that shipped in October of 1947 in a gold box.

 

[DCWilson]

I have it in mind that the gold boxes were phased in as needed after different models had begun new production. In 1946 S&W was concentrating on the K and N frame revolvers in .38 Special, with heavy production of M&Ps as well as the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman .38/44s. In 1947 the K-22 Masterpiece was added. I believe all of these started out in maroon boxes but moved to the gold boxes some time in 1947. I expect gold boxes were standard for 1948, but some newly introduced models -- the K-38 Masterpiece for example -- may have started in maroon boxes while the company was awaiting delivery of the preferred containers. This is one of those things that I keep intending to nail down with a timeline and database of the different commercial models that are known to be housed today in their original boxes. I just haven't done it yet.

I'd be happy to be corrected on this if my impression is wrong.

 

[JP@AK]

Any idea when they switched to the gold box?

The earliest M&P gold boxes I've found show up in the S836 range, shipping in August, 1946. Maroon boxes were also still being used.

 

[JP@AK]

Funny thing about mine is that it has period stocks with the solid blue stock circles and the hole for the domed screw.

Nothing really strange about that, Larry. The flat screw didn't show up until a bit later than June, 1946. I'll have to check through my collection, but it seems like it was mid- or late-1947. Unfortunately, that isn't something I've tracked in my database, but I'm sure none of my 1946 shipped examples have the flat head screw.

 

[DCWilson]

The earliest M&P gold boxes I've found show up in the S836 range, shipping in August, 1946. Maroon boxes were also still being used.

The flat screw didn't show up until a bit later than June, 1946. I'll have to check through my collection, but it seems like it was mid- or late-1947. Unfortunately, that isn't something I've tracked in my database, but I'm sure none of my 1946 shipped examples have the flat head screw.

Excellent data points for some of my longstanding uncertainties. I will check the specimens in my safe after coffee and come back here to note results.


EDITED TO ADD:

S814910 flat screw with non-original stocks 820039 (dimpled)
S819540 domed screw with original stocks (dimpled)
S820116 domed screw with original stocks (dimpled)
S868055 flat screw with original stocks (dimpled)

The first revolver (shipped April 1946) came to me with later undimpled stocks (now replaced with chronologically closer dimpled stocks), and I suspect a domed screw may have been replaced to make the prior set fit. The last revolver (shipped January 1947) has its original dimpled stocks, but also has a flat screw. I cannot be sure that the screw was not replaced, but according to Jack's observations it very likely has been. The second revolver was shipped in April 1946 and the third in June 1946.


I suppose another way to address this question is to look at loose or mis-mounted stocks and identify (1) the highest known number on dimpled magnas, and (2) the lowest known number on undimpled magnas.


I have no gold boxes that would bear on the K-frame M&P question. I do have a Postwar Transitional Heavy Duty (shipped July 1946) that came to me in a gold box with the matching serial number, but I am suspicious of it. I also have a Transitional Outdoorsman that shipped that month. It too came to me in a gold box that correctly describes the revolver it contains, but the box is unnumbered. I don't believe it can be original, because I have been informed by a leading authority (1Aspenhill) that the early Transitional ODs shipped in maroon boxes.

 

[Wingmaster]

Please excuse my ignorance but could you explain the difference between "dimpled" and "undimpled" stocks?

Thanks

 

[delcrossv]

IIRC Dimpled means the stock has a divot (dimple) to fit the domed sideplate screw. Else the rear sideplate screw needs to be flat for the stock to fit flush over the sideplate.

 

[DCWilson]

Yes. The four sideplate screws were all domed from early on. When magna stocks appeared, the rearmost sideplate screw prevented the right cheek piece from going flat to the frame unless a dimple was created on the inner surface that matched the contours of the screw head Similarly, there was a small dimple required on the left cheek piece where the stud for the trigger return spring rose up above the frame surface. Eventually the rounded stud was polished flat to the frame, doing away with the left side problem, and the solution for the right side was simply to use a flat head screw that did not rise above the surface of the frame.

I'm not sure that "dimpled" is an approved or regularly used term, but it was the word that came to mind when I was trying to summarize the features of those four revolvers.

 

[jlemay69]

Please excuse my ignorance but could you explain the difference between "dimpled" and "undimpled" stocks?

Thanks

The right-hand grip has a "cut out" dimple to allow the grip to fit flush with the frame with a domed screw head under the grip.

If the screw head under the grip was flat-surfaced and flush with the side plate then no dimple was required for the grip to fit flush.

 

[Wingmaster]

Thanks for the explaination guys. That's the first time I've heard of this.

 

[delcrossv]

Thanks for the explaination guys. That's the first time I've heard of this.

The issue only comes up with Magna stocks on older guns with all domed screws. Service stocks "miss" the problem.

Congrats David, that's a gorgeous M&P.

 

[JP@AK]

S814910 flat screw with non-original stocks 820039 (dimpled)

(shipped April 1946)

David
Your mention of this revolver rang a bell, so I had to go back and look at my records. A relatively unusual M&P Target Model from the '40s, there is one item that grabbed my eye when I saw your pictures of it several years ago. The hammer pivot stud is pressed into the frame, not threaded.

Here is the reason that is of interest. The threaded stud was ordered eliminated and replaced with one that is pressed into the frame on January 18, 1946. The change starts showing up on the M&Ps (fixed sights) at S819462. I have listed a dozen or so guns in the S819 range above S819462, all of which have the pressed stud and none of which shipped before April, 1946. But your target model, which also shipped in April, has a serial number 4,500 numbers lower than any other unit with the pressed stud that I've found. It would be interesting to see if the other M&P target models built at that time have the pressed stud. I know your revolver was in a single unit shipment, but I'm sure there were others shipped around the same time.

I love stuff like this!

 

[DCWilson]

I love stuff like this!

As do I!

S814910 is indeed a Model of 1946 Target (aka Mexican). I will look at the revolver again to make sure I didn't misstate reality when I told you it had a pressed stud. I believe -- and I hope your data base will confirm -- that a bunch of revolvers with serial numbers in the S813xxx to S820xxx range were being shipped March through May of 1946. (This Mexican shipped April 30, according to factory records.) S819540, which I haven't posted yet but will soon, shipped April 3. Some revolver had to be the first one to get a pressed stud, and I suppose it could have been any one of the units turned out from mid-January through March.

I will let you know about the stud in S819540 as well. I haven't had the gun open yet. It looks pressed from the outside, but under the circumstances it makes sense to look at both sides of frame penetration.

 

[JP@AK]

I will look at the revolver again to make sure I didn't misstate reality when I told you it had a pressed stud.

Actually, I don't think you told me. I just observed it from the left side frame, externally, when I looked at your pictures. Then I entered it into the database as pressed.

So, you are correct, it bears checking under the sideplate. But I've never come across one that is threaded but appears flush to the frame on the outside like the pressed stud. You can always see the dome shape of the stud end.

 

[Retired W4]

...
The only blemish on the gun is some sort of ID number (driver license, maybe?) scratched on the butt with what must have been a needle...

Oh, a fool and his needle.

 

[Wingmaster]

I have seen several firearms over the years that have what appears to be a drivers license number carved into them. For the life of me I can't figure out why someone would do this. A drivers license isn't necessarily a permanent number. I could possibly understand a social security number because it's permanent.

It seems to me that logging the serial number in a notebook would have accomplished the ability to identify a firearm as ones personal property.

 

[DWalt]

I have two guns which their previous owners embellished with their DL numbers. I would never consider doing that.