An inquiring mind wants to know

[lrrifleman]

Hello All!

With all the stay-at-home orders that are in place, my mind has started to wander.

Is anyone aware of whether or not the 5.7x28 round has started to establish any form of record or reputation as either a law enforcement or civilian self-defense round? I would think due to it's diminutive size and weight that it would not be an immediate threat stopper. Has anyone seen any reports on it's real world effectiveness?

Thanks!

 

[hogblue]

Not heard of it being used widespread in law enforcement, however, Nadal Hasan used an FN FiveSeven to kill 14 and wound 30 at Fort Hood. It is a very potent round.

 

[rosewood]

Hello All!

With all the stay-at-home orders that are in place, my mind has started to wander.

Is anyone aware of whether or not the 5.7x28 round has started to establish any form of record or reputation as either a law enforcement or civilian self-defense round? I would think due to it's diminutive size and weight that it would not be an immediate threat stopper. Has anyone seen any reports on it's real world effectiveness?

Thanks!

I believe the FN P90 was developed as a special forces weapon in Israel??

Rosewood

 

[Echo40]

Put it this way, at one point in time in the early 90s, NATO forces were gearing up to replace 9mm Luger with 5.7x28, but Germany basically threw a hissy fit because 9mm Luger was a German round and their own domestically produced competition to 5.7x28 failed the trials, and somewhere along the lines it all fell apart because Germany just kept protesting and wouldn't budge.

So yeah, the fact that NATO forces nearly adopted it in favor of 9mm Luger, despite the fact that it's obviously far more expensive than 9mm and would have required every NATO army to swap out their 9mm sidearms in favor of the FN FiveseveN and adopt the P90 Bullpup says it must have had something going for it, especially considering how military forces tend to opt for the lowest bidder when it comes to new equipment.

 

[Johnnu2]

Hello All!

With all the stay-at-home orders that are in place, my mind has started to wander.

Is anyone aware of whether or not the 5.7x28 round has started to establish any form of record or reputation as either a law enforcement or civilian self-defense round? I would think due to it's diminutive size and weight that it would not be an immediate threat stopper. Has anyone seen any reports on it's real world effectiveness?

Thanks!

IMHO, it will take the record of the most expensive (and deadly) round.

 

[lrrifleman]

... gearing up to replace 9mm Luger with 5.7x28, but Germany bthe fact that NATO forces nearly adopted it in favor of 9mm Luger, despite the fact that it's obviously far more expensive than 9mm and would have required every NATO army to swap out their 9mm sidearms in favor of the FN FiveseveN and adopt the P90 Bullpup says it must have had something going for it ...

Under traditional circumstances I could accept this on it's face. Unfortunately, I remember one of the lectures that I had to sit through in ROTC, even though I totally disagreed with the goal of the lesson. In that particular lesson, the objective was to emphasize that the objective of a battle was to wound as many of the enemy as possible, as opposed to killing as many of the enemy as possible. The rationale was that for each non-fatal injury inflicted, you took two to three of the enemy out of action (one to two men caring for/removing the injured soldier from the action), whereas if you killed the enemy, you only took that soldier out of the equation. I would read this attempt at a NATO adoption of the 5.7x28 round as a method of reducing enemy opposition by wounding more of the enemy than killing them.

 

[rosewood]

Check out the review by Paul Harrell on utube comparing the ruger to the fn.

 

[Rudi]

As I recall it was intended to be loaded with AP bullets, to pierce body armor. This not available to the public. Still looks like a hot little caliber.

 

[Pisgah]

Well, the Secret Service seems to think enough of it to use it in protection details.

 

[ancient-one]

My late son-in-law built a AR in that caliber. I think it was Midway, but not sure, had bought a bunch of the ammo cheap and he bought loads of it. I remember he had a fifty round plastic magazine for the gun.
He built a bunch of AR's in different calibers and probably never shot half of them.

 

[Echo40]

Under traditional circumstances I could accept this on it's face. Unfortunately, I remember one of the lectures that I had to sit through in ROTC, even though I totally disagreed with the goal of the lesson. In that particular lesson, the objective was to emphasize that the objective of a battle was to wound as many of the enemy as possible, as opposed to killing as many of the enemy as possible. The rationale was that for each non-fatal injury inflicted, you took two to three of the enemy out of action (one to two men caring for/removing the injured soldier from the action), whereas if you killed the enemy, you only took that soldier out of the equation. I would read this attempt at a NATO adoption of the 5.7x28 round as a method of reducing enemy opposition by wounding more of the enemy than killing them.

That's a good point, but considering that the 5.7x28 FN's competition the 4.6x30 H&K cartridge allegedly failed because it was more likely to wound than kill, I doubt that's why it was going to be adopted. Besides, I doubt that the Army would endanger soliders by intentionally adopting less effective cartridges.

As I recall it was intended to be loaded with AP bullets, to pierce body armor. This not available to the public. Still looks like a hot little caliber.

It is to my understanding that even 5.7x28 FMJ will defeat lower level body armor.

 

[rosewood]

Under traditional circumstances I could accept this on it's face. Unfortunately, I remember one of the lectures that I had to sit through in ROTC, even though I totally disagreed with the goal of the lesson. In that particular lesson, the objective was to emphasize that the objective of a battle was to wound as many of the enemy as possible, as opposed to killing as many of the enemy as possible. The rationale was that for each non-fatal injury inflicted, you took two to three of the enemy out of action (one to two men caring for/removing the injured soldier from the action), whereas if you killed the enemy, you only took that soldier out of the equation. I would read this attempt at a NATO adoption of the 5.7x28 round as a method of reducing enemy opposition by wounding more of the enemy than killing them.

I heard that was the reason we went to the 5.56 over the traditional .30 caliber cartridges.

Rosewood

 

[rwsmith]

It tests very well......

Civilians and police agencies can use hollow point ammo. Even with the FMJ, the military seemed impressed with it.

 

[rosewood]

Well, the Secret Service seems to think enough of it to use it in protection details.

What gun do they carry it in?

 

[mscampbell2734]

It's my understanding the cartridge and weapons, both the pistol and FN P90, were designed by FN specifically for a request by several European nations for both a Special Operations and SWAT weapon for domestic use.

The Euros wanted something that was lethal and could penetrate soft body armor out to 100 yards, yet lose its' lethality/ability to penetrate barriers beyond a certain range. Remember most of Europe's major cities are way more densely populated then in the US. They are deathly afraid of collateral damage. A small, light bullet loses velocity/lethality quickly, and does not penetrate light walls well.

NATO standard ammo for 5.56 is the M855 round, with the SS109 penetrator steel tip bullet. Not exactly ideal for dense urban settings for POLICE actions. Full blown military assaults not withstanding.

 

[mckenney99]

My understanding for the development of the 5.7x28 round centered around the Light Armor Piercing (LAP) round being able to penetrate the light titanium plates that the soviets were issuing at the time. Apparently the Soviets had a large amount of raw materials to create titanium which was ideal for lightweight ballistic armor. Anyway, even the hottest 9mm rounds were no longer effective against this newer issued ballistic protection being fielded by the eastern block. The FN P90 was just FN's submission to the trials looking for a PDW weapon with the penetration that was specified in the trials. The trials themselves were suspended with the decision to just stick with the standard issue carbine (although shorter) and newer advanced LAP ammo, thus simplifying logistics. The FN pistol & PS90 bullpup carbine came later as FN wanted to salvage their R&D investment and sought civilian and LE sales. Non-AP ammo had to be developed for the civilian and LE roles.

 

[Rock185]

I'm not aware of any real world track record, other than that Jihadi murderer at Fort Hood.

FWIW, I had the use of a FN FiveseveN pistol on a T&E deal for several months. We used the supplied FN SS192 JHP because it was going to take me about three months, IIRC, to jump through all the hoops and get the SS190 AP, that was considered the duty ammo at the time, from a bonded warehouse back East. Interesting, reliable pistol, with an awkward safety,etc. I chronographed the SS192 in the pistol barrel. It averaged 2025 FPS. At that velocity, even the SS192 JHP was very penetrative. That Ruger 57 looks like a more user friendly pistol to me, especially as regards the safety position and operation....

ETA: I would not pick the 5.7 cartridge over traditional SD/carry/duty pistol calibers. As indicated in previous posts, the cartridge was developed to defeat SBR. Perhaps some advantage on the battlefield, but elsewhere, not so much IMHO......

 

[Doug M.]

My understanding is that it is of similar nature/performance to the .22 Magnum. It will work, but would not be a first choice.

 

[Rock185]

Yes, in that ballistics of the 5.7X28 in a pistol are similar to what the .22 Magnum rimfire will produce in a rifle. The 5.7X28 velocity spread, standard deviation, etc. though are closer than any .22 Mag. I can recall chronographing in handgun or rifle. Just more consistent shot to shot, due being a centerfire cartridge I guess. Definitely not a first choice IMHO.