Annealing 44 Russian Cases

[JohnBz]

I am getting ready to load up some BP ammo for my Berlin made Russian 44 and was wondering if other reloaders anneal their brass first.

Have heard that annealed cases will expand more and therefore cause a lot less blowby to gum up the action. Also heard that "from the factory" Starline brass is not originally annealed. True?

Is it worth the effort to soften the cartridge mouths?

 

[Kinman]

I've never bothered with annealing pistol cases, I've never known anyone that did. The only black powder cases that I anneal are straight wall cases in my 38-55,45-70 and 45-90. They are annealed as new cases, fired to form to chamber size and never full length resized again unless used in another rifle where they are again full length resized and fired to form to that particular chamber. I have not reached a stage where they have been fired enough to re-anneal, I have heard others talk about it.
It would be tough to anneal a case as short as the .44 Russian, with longer cases it is fairly easy, find the correct number size drill bit that tightly fits the primer hole, chuck it in a drill, insert the case so that the open case mouth is exposed. Have a propane torch set so that you can spin the case and insert the mouth into the flame. Best done in a rather low light condition you want to watch the tip of the case and the second it changes color remove from flame and either air cool by dropping onto a soft towel or quickly cool by dumping into a bucket of water...two schools of thought, both viable. Those that drop into water claim the annealing will last longer, I have yet been able to prove otherwise.

 

[BMur]

Heat treating brass

The process is a focus on Heat treating the mouth of the case only!

It's not as easy as it sounds. If you don't treat it correctly the case will split longitudinally from mouth to head. Which is dangerous!

The only time I have used this process is to convert cases to different calibers due to lack of brass available. 30-06 to 7.7 Japanese and .38 special to .41 Long Colt.

The process definitely weakens the brass and only light loads can be used after the annealing process is used. " Especially with smokeless powder"!!!

I've had great success with this process with black powder Standard loads since the chamber pressure is much lower than smokeless. I have NEVER cracked a case with black powder after annealing the brass and it does fire form much better to chamber dimensions!

However, again, ONLY for black powder loads. I'll post a photo later of one of my annealed cases that cracked from a light smokeless load in 41 Long Colt.

PHOTO's added: 41 Long cases split from standard smokeless load shot 1 time! However, NONE of my annealed cases have cracked from Black Powder use.

Rifle cases that are noticeably discolored? That's what normally happens with the annealing process. However, the results are cracked mouths very quickly using smokeless.

In my opinion the only real benefit is to the "thrifty" shooter who wants to save money by reloading black powder cases several more times without the case mouths cracking. It does work for that purpose.


Murph

 

[JohnBz]

So Murph,

Is the idea that annealed cases expand more and seal better upon firing and are thus cleaner on the gun, not really true?

No real help in preventing cylinder binding, etc.?

 

[BMur]

cleaner burning?

JohnBz,
I've never heard of that theory before. Chamber pressures with Black Powder in pistols is very low normally. Peak pressure occurs briefly right before the bullet leaves the muzzle "normally".

All of my loads come out filthy. I know that your accuracy will improve marginally with Black Powder loads after properly annealing the case. That does work. I've proved that at the range with target pistols. It's amazing actually but that is a dialing in process that tightens your groups once the round is dialed in to say 3" groups at 20 yards? This is part of the process to bring your groups down to about 2 1/2" or slightly less. So minimal benefit. More anal than worth the time really.

So, I personally have never seen evidence of a cleaner burn. Like I mentioned before the real benefit is longer lasting cases with Black powder use. It's actually amazing how much longer the cases last. Usually the primer pocket gives up the ghost before the case does. They loosen from popping out shot primers and punching in new ones.

I just looked at my range log and I can get over 10 reloads from an annealed pistol case with Black Powder use on average. Where as standard smokeless loads start to crack at the mouth after the 7th reload "on average". So if you reload a lot and shoot a lot? There in lies your benefit. Case life!

Murph

 

[BMur]

Clean burn

JohnBz,
If you want to introduce a clean burn with Black Powder? It can be done. I've never done it with the 44 Russian. However I did document it with a 38 S&W Topbreak. I kept shortening the case and reducing the powder load until the White smoke went away and a near perfect burn was achieved. The sacrifice is bullet speed. At about 500 FPS the burn was perfect and accuracy at 30 feet was still excellent. It's the same principle as a gallery load. They actually burn much cleaner!
So if you want to reduce fouling of the gun just gradually reduce the powder load until you find the perfect burn. Be careful though, you don't want to get into a detonation curve with a heavy bullet! Use a lighter bullet of under 160 grains and a much lesser load seating the bullet slightly compressed against the powder. Your gun will no longer foul up quickly either.

Murph

 

[JohnBz]

Murph,

Thanks for all the great info.

Guess I'll start off with some light gallery loads and go from there.

Any problem with lubing on top of the ball with a q-tip after inserting the ball onto the powder?

 

[BMur]

Accuracy

Don't tell anyone but that's one of the secrets to nail driving accuracy!

Murph

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Any problem with lubing on top of the ball with a q-tip after inserting the ball onto the powder?

I never tried it with cartridge handgun but in Cap & Ball revolvers I usually fill the front of the chamber with a paste lube or on cooler days, Crisco! (I use a popsicle stick like a butter knife) In my single shot BP Cartridge rifles I often use Crisco and run the bullet through like a potato chip in dip.

You might consider a cookie of hard lube under the bullet and above a over powder card. Straight paraffin or made from 2parts paraffin/1 part vegi oil. Make hard lube the thickness you wish and place a charged case with a card on table, put a hunk of hard lube over mouth and push down (the case cuts the lube,) then seat the bullet.

For Cowboy shooting on friend used 15 grains of FFFg (no card) 1/4" of paraffin pressed in and a 158 grain RN in a 357 case, left no fouling in revolvers or rifles. But the revolvers literally had liquid paraffin flowing out the muzzle and cylinder gap. But in the course of 60 rounds handgun and 60 rounds rifle not a single problem. Also, Hot Water clean up took care of paraffin also!

Ivan

 

[Oyeboteb]

I am getting ready to load up some BP ammo for my Berlin made Russian 44 and was wondering if other reloaders anneal their brass first.

Have heard that annealed cases will expand more and therefore cause a lot less blowby to gum up the action. Also heard that "from the factory" Starline brass is not originally annealed. True?

Is it worth the effort to soften the cartridge mouths?

Bullets should be virtually the same size as the Cylinder Bores.

This may mean you will have to use a Die to expand under-size Cases.

You can not rely on a properly sized Bullet to expand an under-size Case.

Starline cases seem to be quite undersize, from what I have seen.

Otherwise, Black Powder Revolver Cartridge Cases should not require re-sizing, nor annealing.

Annealing is usually called for from work-hardening, having occurred from repeated re-sizing to be smaller, which of course makes no sense whatever to do, for this kind of application.

 

[gwpercle]

Don't over think all the stuff you hear about annealing and don't over do it .
44 Russian , and other black powder handgun rounds are made soft because of the low pressures they generate . Load a few of your cases , test fire and see if you are getting excess blow-by . Chances are good they will not need annealing . After 15 or 20 loadings you might want to anneal to try and extend case life ...sometimes it works sometimes they crack anyway.
Be careful if you do start annealing and do not over heat the brass mouth ... overheating can damage...just what you are trying not to do .
I've only annealed 1 lot of handgun cases , 50 - 41 magnum cases when loading some light target wadcutter (cast lead) ... the brass was as hard as woodpecker lips ... and wouldn't seal at the low pressure.
This was before the 41 Special cases came along .
Gary

 

[mstem]

Only pistol cases I anneal are bottleneck cases I use in my T/C Contender pistols, .30 Herrett, .309 JDJ, .375 Win, .223 Rem, 218 Bee, & .256 Win Mag. Also for my Savage 516 Striker in . 243 Win.

 

[JohnBz]

Thanks for all the great info...........

Especially like the popsicle stick idea. Have some skinny wooden coffee stirrers that should work perfectly.

I'll postpone annealing until I see if I get much worrisome blowby. So simple gallery loads with .440 round balls it will be for now.

 

[Kinman]

We have found that Swiss produces the cleanest burn and least fouling shot to shot, Goex Olde Eynesford runs a close second, Goex regular and Schuetzen are undistinguishable and Kik or Elephant is garbage. You pay for what you get...

 

[CBH44]

As a youngster, I annealed a bunch of .44 mag cases, without any knowledge whatsoever. Had to pound them out with a dowel. Too much heat . Be careful.

 

[applefish]

We have found that Swiss produces the cleanest burn and least fouling shot to shot, Goex Olde Eynesford runs a close second, Goex regular and Schuetzen are undistinguishable and Kik or Elephant is garbage. You pay for what you get...

In my experience with muzzleloaders Swiss burns hotter than Goex too. I've also heard that Swiss granulation sizes best approximate what they used in the 1800s, while with Goex and Schuetzen you may have to step up from 2F to 3F. Apparently there's a difference in how they do the graphite coating that makes Goex burn slower and dirtier.



Here's the powder granulations S&W recommended back in the turn of the 1900's: interestingly it's 2Fg for the regular 44 Russian, 2Fg, but 3Fg for the 44 Gallery.

Though that would make sense since with the lighter projectile you would want it to burn faster. The factory recommendation of powder size might also affect the amount of powder fouling, sort of like Murph's suggestion to adjust the powder charge to minize fouling.

 

[Kinman]

My limited experience with Swiss has me using 3F in every pistol and light caliber rifle cartridge like 38-55 with excellent results. I used to use Goex 3F but Swiss is snappier with a cleaner residue, less fouling. If money were no object I would use Swiss exclusively, I like Goex Olde Eynesford as a cheaper substitute...its close but you really get down and compare them Swiss is better, like my daddy used to say "You pay your money and take the chances."
I find it interesting how well Swiss 1-1/2F works in large caliber rifle cartridges and muzzle loaders. I use Swiss in 45-70 and 45-90. I also use Olde Eynesford 1-1/2F in my .45 muzzle loading target rifle and have switched over to using it in my .54's as well.
The Frenchman sent an article on screen size comparisons on Swiss and Goex which I found interesting. Swiss 1-1/2 is comparable in size to Goex 2F. Swiss also does not respond to compression the way Goex does, very little compression required with Swiss...however....Goex requires compression, it does Swiss no benefit.