Another "Oops" for the F-35

[LVSteve]

This article explains some of the rumors coming out of Nellis about the F-35 being a pain to maintain. The general's candor stating that the bleed cooling air was "underspecced" from the beginning of the project is very welcome. For too long the DoD has buried its foul-ups.

Sadly, it appears the super-duper AETP engine project has been judged to have too much risk to be considered as a near-term fix. The general also let slip that the latest Block 4 updates take the aircraft to its power limits. Whether that is a big problem I cannot say, but it suggests that upgrades involving new, power-hungry electronics are a non-starter until the power consumption is reduced elswhere in the system.

F-35 Engine Running Too Hot Due To '''Under-Speccing,''' Upgrade Now Vital

 

[TJm15.38]

I'm retired USAF and every time I see a story like this, it makes me wonder if this aircraft is the biggest lemon cash cow in the history of the service. To shore up this aircraft and get it to the capability required, money has been drained from other weapon systems and programs. I can't believe they want to retire the F-22 as early as they propose. Meanwhile, the airlift and tanker aircraft are aging to the point of ridiculous. These hi-tech fighters can't get anywhere without airlift logistics and tanker fuel. Sorry for the rant, but I question the decision making of USAF leadership.

 

[MDF4]

Retire the F-22 and replace it with the new "Ultra Secret Jet Fighter" NGAD Next Generation Air Dominance platform? How many years will it take to work out the bugs on that system? Meanwhile, let's keep dumping more money into the F-35...too late to stop now.

 

[LVSteve]

I'm retired USAF and every time I see a story like this, it makes me wonder if this aircraft is the biggest lemon cash cow in the history of the service. To shore up this aircraft and get it to the capability required, money has been drained from other weapon systems and programs. I can't believe they want to retire the F-22 as early as they propose. Meanwhile, the airlift and tanker aircraft are aging to the point of ridiculous. These hi-tech fighters can't get anywhere with airlift logistics and tanker fuel. Sorry for the rant, but I question the decision making of USAF leadership.

Reading between the lines of the DoD obfuscation, I think the issue with the F-22 is that its avionics system is way behind the current state-of-the-art available in the F-35. I know that may seem unlikely to some, but go look up when the development of the F-22 go started. It's further back than you think.

What I cannot understand is why they cannot back-fill the F-22 with the new tech. Maybe there is an incompatibility with the databus systems, and if the one in the F-22 is highly integrated into the airframe, it may not be cost effect to replace it.

 

[LVSteve]

Retire the F-22 and replace it with the new "Ultra Secret Jet Fighter" NGAD Next Generation Air Dominance platform? How many years will it take to work out the bugs on that system? Meanwhile, let's keep dumping more money into the F-35...too late to stop now.

Yes, there's little doubt the DoD has painted itself into a "too big to fail" corner. It's pretty sad, because the F-35s at the last airshow flew way better than the ones I saw pre-COVID. If all the gadgets work as advertised, it is a very capable weapon, but if you are burning out the motors because of a basic slip up in the design phase, there is sure to be an impact in the long-term, if only in dollar terms.

 

[fordson]

Very interesting article. From just the maintenance perspective, engine time-at-temperature (meaning the more Time an engine operates at higher Temperatures) reduces engine maintenance cycles times (frequency of engine returns for schedule/unscheduled maintenance ). More engines in the maintenance pipe line means less engines in operation.

 

[petepeterson]

Reading between the lines of the DoD obfuscation, I think the issue with the F-22 is that its avionics system is way behind the current state-of-the-art available in the F-35. I know that may seem unlikely to some, but go look up when the development of the F-22 go started. It's further back than you think.

What I cannot understand is why they cannot back-fill the F-22 with the new tech. Maybe there is an incompatibility with the databus systems, and if the one in the F-22 is highly integrated into the airframe, it may not be cost effect to replace it.

Wouldn't it have been simpler then to begin building the F-22 "A1" or some other moniker?

 

[LVSteve]

Wouldn't it have been simpler then to begin building the F-22 "A1" or some other moniker?

Bluntly, these aren't the Reagan years of infinite money. The way the USAF sees it, money going into re-engineering the F-22 is money that won't be spent on NGAD, the B-21, or some super black project we know nothing about.

 

[fordson]

Bluntly, these aren't the Reagan years of infinite money. The way the USAF sees it, money going into re-engineering the F-22 is money that won't be spent on NGAD, the B-21, or some super black project we know nothing about.

Correct. Fixed budgets getting more fixed each fiscal year. Years ago I attended a Senate DOD/DON budget hearing on the DON Five Year Defense Plan. It started to get contentious over the quantity of 20MM rounds required for the fleet.

 

[BigBoy99]

One has to wonder when AF Generals retire, why they all become executive vice presidents of the companies which make the jet fighters?

 

[mckenney99]

Huge money pits with faulty engineering are not limited to the USAF. The US Navy has a history of its share of foul ups, blunders and just plain boondoggles. Some of their new ships had/have multiple problems with the basic systems on the newest aircraft carriers and the Littoral Combat Ships have huge design defects in the propulsion systems. None of the services, nor congress seems to really, truly care. No one is ever held accountable. The money isn't coming out of their pockets and the money continues to flow unimpeded to the defense industry.

 

[ameridaddy]

About 14 years ago, I had occasion to be in a factory that made major components for the aircraft, and was stunned that this supplier was allowed to continue getting paid, and stayed profitable, with a 75% reject rate for the parts they made.
To me, that smelled like some mismanagement or outright fraud was afoot.
It's entirely too easy to be spendy with other people's money.

 

[DUSTYDOGDAN]

Isn't it going to replace everything including the A-10 for close air support? ...LOL

 

[SMSgt]

Reading between the lines of the DoD obfuscation, I think the issue with the F-22 is that its avionics system is way behind the current state-of-the-art available in the F-35. I know that may seem unlikely to some, but go look up when the development of the F-22 go started. It's further back than you think.

What I cannot understand is why they cannot back-fill the F-22 with the new tech. Maybe there is an incompatibility with the databus systems, and if the one in the F-22 is highly integrated into the airframe, it may not be cost effect to replace it.

Garmin could update the avionics in a few days.