ANOTHER SPOILED HAND EJECTOR?

[ETMJR]

My Father-in-law, Henry A. Curtis, SWCA #177, gave me this gun in the mid-1990's. I have identified it, but have managed to form a few nagging questions.....of which I ask for the Forum's expertise. Hank told me it had been converted to .45 Long Colt (often done to .455s) brought here from a war. I have fired .45 Long Colt through it. I lived in Calgary at one time and suggested to him the gun may have been used by Canadian forces. That is one of the questions I ask now. My questions are at the end of this posting.

DATA:
Smith & Wesson .455 MK II Hand Ejector 2nd Model.
Cylinder accepts .45 long Colt.
Serial Number: 655XX on bottom of butt, face of cylinder, underside of barrel.

Finish: Deep rich blue, nearly black.

ENGRAVED NAME ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE FRAME:
Lt. C.R. Avery
C.F.A.

STAMPINGS:
Left side of barrel:
SMITH & WESSON .455

Top of barrel:
SMITH & WESSON MASS SPRINGFIELD, U.S.A.
PATENTED OCT. 8, 1901. DEC. 17, 1901. FEB.6, 1906

Right side on sideplate:
S W logo in a circle. Trade (above circle). Mark (below circle).

Bottom of butt:
Serial # at the rear of the lanyard loop.
The number 30 below a crown at the front of the lanyard loop.

Left side of frame:
Letter C with an inverted V inside.

3 lines, one is vertical, 2 others are slightly skew of the vertical line to the right and left. This mark can be seen on page 167 of the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, bottom left in the picture.

Indescribable stamp (maybe is two close stamps).

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

COMMENTS:
THERE IS NO .45 COLT STAMPING.
THERE IS NO SERIAL NUMBER ON INSIDE OF GRIPS.

QUESTIONS:
IS C.F.A. CANADIAN FORCES ARTILLERY?

WILL FIRE .45 LONG COLT, CAN I STILL FIRE .455?

IS THIS A CANADIAN ISSUE?

THE SERIAL NUMBER IS STILL ON THE CYLINDER, DID SMITH & WESSON COUNTERBORE THE CYLINDER?

WAS THIS GUN ONE OF THOSE ORIGINALLY MADE IN .45 LONG COLT?

Thanks to all,
Ed

 

[Crazy K38]

if the barrel stamp says .455 I doubt it was made in .45LC however I could be wrong

 

[Muley Gil]

Your revolver was built in .455 caliber for the British forces during World War I. It was altered after the war to make it more usable to US shooters. .45 Colt was easier to obtain than was .455.

It is very doubtful that the revolver was rechambered to .45 Colt by the S&W factory. Are there any rework marks under the grips?

You should still be able to fire .455 ammo.

I had one of those 2nd models once. It too was converted to .45 Colt and had been reblued. It was a good shooter. I even carried it as a police duty weapon for awhile. Traded it and a M97 Winchester for a '53 Ford pick-up. Should have kept the guns.

 

[opoefc]

Ed, believe it or not, lightning can stike the same place twice! I believe I sold/traded (?) that gun to Hank about 30 yrs before he gave it to you. The serial number is 65501. You may recall that Hank's house caught on fire in early 1976 and his collection of 145 S&Ws and related items, was stored in the attic and suffered considerable damages due to heat & smoke, etc. .44 Hand Ejector, 2nd Model, Mark II, ser. # 65501, was in that fire and suffered some smoke damage to the grips and finish, however that was resolved by a thorough disassembly and cleaning. Hank's insurance company retained my services to do an appraisal of the collection, damages, diminuition in value, etc. in order to settle the loss claim. Hank's pre-fire loss description of the gun says: 90% blue, stocks with gold seal. engraved " Lt. C.R. Avery, C.F.A." Excellent mechanically. Bored for .45 Colt. 6 1/2 in. barrel." The C with the inverted V is the standard Canadian military mark. The V is actually a broad arrow stamp. The service record of Lt. Avery is probably available through Canadian Gov't sources, but I don't have a contact address available at the moment. perhaps some of the Forum members in Canada can advise you on that. The above postings are correct info., and you might want to get a factory letter on the gun, just to cover that part of it's history. Good luck, Ed.

 

[tocohillsguy]

Ed, believe it or not, lightning can stike the same place twice! I believe I sold/traded (?) that gun to Hank about 30 yrs before he gave it to you. The serial number is 65501. You may recall that Hank's house caught on fire in early 1976 and his collection of 145 S&Ws and related items, was stored in the attic and suffered considerable damages due to heat & smoke, etc. .44 Hand Ejector, 2nd Model, Mark II, ser. # 65501, was in that fire and suffered some smoke damage to the grips and finish, however that was resolved by a thorough disassembly and cleaning. Hank's insurance company retained my services to do an appraisal of the collection, damages, diminuition in value, etc. in order to settle the loss claim. Hank's pre-fire loss description of the gun says: 90% blue, stocks with gold seal. engraved " Lt. C.R. Avery, C.F.A." Excellent mechanically. Bored for .45 Colt. 6 1/2 in. barrel." The C with the inverted V is the standard Canadian military mark. The V is actually a broad arrow stamp. The service record of Lt. Avery is probably available through Canadian Gov't sources, but I don't have a contact address available at the moment. perhaps some of the Forum members in Canada can advise you on that. The above postings are correct info., and you might want to get a factory letter on the gun, just to cover that part of it's history. Good luck, Ed.

Okay. This goes down as one of the most amazing posts I've read. I mean holy smokes who would think they would receive such a detailed and gun specific response.

 

[ETMJR]

Reply to opoefc

Well Ed.......you could have knocked me over with a feather after I read your posting. Good thing I was sitting down at the time.

The fire was on Christmas day, 1975, I was there. We heard thumping around above our heads, second later a neighbor burst through the door with "your house is on fire." I called the fire department and we all got outside. Hank and I followed the firemen up his folding attic staircase in the hallway (after the fire was out, of course). I saw 3 firemen staring down in silence at 3 Light Rifles lying in the ashes. They didn't know what they were looking at and were obviously stunned. That day and in the days to come, I helped Hank sift through the burned top-breaks and others. We laid them on a blanket. I saw burned nickel, burned blue, burned gutta percha....it was sickening. His comment (to himself): "why were only the good ones burned?" Of course all were good, but some of the best were burned. I gave my daughter his Victory model, the parkerizing on the barrel was scorched.

We were lucky in that fire. I took a look at the ceiling joists right above the living room where we all were. They were burned through to within 2" of the bottom of the joists. Could have been a lot worse.

Your post is invaluable to me, giving me history + data, thank you Ed, I really appreciate you.

The second Ed.

 

[opoefc]

2nd Ed, I had forgotten who was there at Hank's house that day, must have been some Christmas celebration to set the house on fire! ( Just kidding!). I scrounged up a sack full of various stocks, etc. and gave them to Hank to replace the burned and melted stocks. He had some of the guns reblued but some became wall hangers, as you probably remember. Gun values were not as high then as now, of course, but the insurance company settled the claim based on my appraisal, so the monetary loss was not as much a disaster as it could have been. Coincidentally, I owned a Property and Casualty Insurance brokerage at that time, so I was very familiar with Calif. Insurance Codes & legal issues related to policy floaters covering loss to collectables and fine arts items, which enabled me to defeat early attempts to avoid liability by the insurance company's adjuster. I'll bet Hank is sitting up there in the Smith & Wesson corner at the Big Gun Show in the Sky, chuckling over our postings! 1st Ed

 

[firearmsunlimited]

To definitively determine the caliber take it to a competent pistol smith and have him check it with a chamber gauge.

 

[depicts]

opoefc, that was amazing! I'm always impressed with your knowledge, but reading what you posted made me shiver.

Imagine the shock when you laid that on Ed, the Nephew. Whew, just doesn't get any better than that.

You're so good that I don't even care if you insult Allen any more!!!! *smile*

 

[cubrock]

CFA means "Canadian Field Artillery."

 

[opoefc]

Firearmsunlimited, That gun is .45 Colt caliber, having been modified from the original .455. No gunsmith check needed, but I understand your recommendation. Hank Curtis was one of our pioneer missle scientist and worked at the Jet Propulsion Lab. in Pasadena, CA for many years. Our first Honest John missles were developed by his team. He was also a competent reloader and shooter, as well as a collector. You could take his gun knowledge to the bank. Also, 2nd Ed: I forgot to mention that the crown stamp over the 30 is the Canadian military inspector's acceptance stamp. Good luck, 1st Ed. (PS: Depicts, Allen who? *smiles* )

 

[DRB]

I would never shoot .455 in a gun converted to 45 colt. The .455 has a much thinner rim so the headspace will be excessive for a .455. I may fire but I would not consider it safe. Remember these older WWI era hand ejectors are not very strong so do not try to make a .45 colt magnum out of it.

 

[opoefc]

DRB, depends on how it is converted to .45 Colt. Remember, these .455s were often .44 S&W Special cylinders bored out to .455. by S&W to make up guns for the British contract. The rim on a .44 S&W Special is about the same as a .45 Colt. These same cylinders were also chambered in various non . 44 S&W calibers by the factory, such as .45 S&W Special, .44-40 WCF, 450 Eley, etc. I've never encountered a problem shooting this model S&W converted to .45 Colt from.455 caliber. There are non S&Ws that have been converted that I would not trust, and as you say, if you fear there could be a problem, don't shoot it. Ed.

 

[W.E.G.]

PLEASE POST PICS!

 

[ETMJR]

MAYBE THE LAST QUESTION ON MY HAND EJECTOR.

Thanks to all who have helped me with this gun, especially thanks to murphydog and opoefc.

Will Roy Jinks provide historical information on military Smith & Wessons as with other Smith & Wessons?

Specifically I want to nail down the manufacture date of 65501. Of course the rest of his data is welcome.

As far as pictures of this gun goes, I'll make an attempt in the next few days. Only last week I discovered fire and started to make flint arrowheads, so give me some time.

Ed

 

[opoefc]

2nd Ed, yes, Roy can supply a factory historical letter for the gun, however it will only show a shipping date, not when the gun was made. Those two dates are not very far apart in your case, as S&W was filling contract for guns to the Brits & Canadians for WW1. 1st Ed, #15

 

[ETMJR]

WW1 C.F.A. OFFICER FOUND

An opportunity to better research C.R.Avery came in a later forum post. I copied and pasted my findings below.

I contacted his family, their reply follows the post below.

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ETMJR
Member Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 10

REPLY TO RANGEROVER---OFFICER FOUND

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Upon reading your post, I went to the site you mentioned. They are an extension of ancestry.com. At any rate I searched for Lt. C.R. Avery, whose name is engraved on my Second Model Hand Ejector. I found Charles Ruggles Avery who enlisted in the 13th Battery C.F.A. (Canadian Field Artillery) on March 27, 1915. Born June 4, 1891. He survived the world war and married in 1921. I have emailed his family to see what else there is on him.
Thank you for your very informational post.
Ed (the second one)
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FAMILY REPLY
The Charles Ruggles Avery I have in my tree was my 4th cousin, 3 times removed. According to his attestation papers, he joined the 13th Battalion, Canadian Field Artillery in 1916. As he was married in 1921 to Ruth MacKlem, he obviously made it through the war.

Other than that he was born in 1891 in Niagara on the Lake, Ontario, I don't have any further information. Hopefully this provides you with a little more.

Mike