Another way to look at it!

[Jeb Stonewall]

Self defence shooting.
Which is the better man stopper?

1. 45cal. 200-230gr. jhp
2. 9mm 115-124gr. mc

While either round would only require one shot if a nerve center was hit, what about a shot into the lungs?
A 45 that may expand to .60cal or not expand at all .451 with no exit?

Or a 9mm that doesn't expand at all but shoots through leaving two wounds sucking air, an exit as well as the entrance of at least .356cal?

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Interestingly, the entrance wound is seldom caliber-diameter. Skin has a very elastic nature and, when impacted by a projectile, tends to stretch a lot at the point of impact, then contract back after penetration.

Entry wounds of greatly different calibers can be very difficult to tell apart, and are frequently less than caliber-diameter of the projectile.

Exit wounds, now that can be a different story entirely. A high-velocity projectile transfers (and loses) energy throughout the penetration process. Some of that transfered energy creates an over-pressure wave ahead of the path of penetration (especially blunt-nosed projectiles). That pressurized mass (tissue, fluids) creates a cavitation effect by pushing into the path of penetration, and upon exiting that pressure can cause quite a lot of tearing of the tissue.

As far as "sucking air", this applies primarily to a wound penetrating a lung, thus permitting such an air exchange.

 

[Jeb Stonewall]

Originally posted by LoboGunLeather:

As far as "sucking air", this applies primarily to a wound penetrating a lung, thus permitting such an air exchange.

That's my point.
With full penetration you have two holes sucking air in to collapse the lungs.

 

[Thicker]

Well the best would be to put 15 rounds into the bad guy, change"clips" and put in 15 more.

 

[YARDDOG]

(2) Holse bleed more than (1)

 

[flop-shank]

9mm FMJ vs. .45 hollowpoint? Is it even debatable?

 

[J274895]

Hey, you know what? Either one is going to hurt like hell.

 

[orion1]

About a year ago there was an extended debate on the forum about stopping power for various handgun calibers. It was primarily driven by the observations of someone who worked in a big city medical examiners office. He had a lot of real world observations and anecdotal evidence based on the accounts of the shootings that were passed on to him. It was one of the longest (# of pages) discussions that I recall on the forum. Maybe someone else will remember the poster, to make your search easier. In relation to your original question; self defense shootings are by their nature, close up affairs. More mass is generally going to equate to more energy being expended on the target. A larger wound channel (bullet diameter), generally equates to more physical damage.

 

[Jeb Stonewall]

What I was asking about is differant thoughts on a 45 that stops in the chest and the 9mm mc that shoots through.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Originally posted by Jeb Stonewall:
What I was asking about is differant thoughts on a 45 that stops in the chest and the 9mm mc that shoots through.

From the perspective of safety, particularly in a populated area, the bullet that stops in its target is preferable. Overpenetration poses serious concerns in most situations.

So, two holes bleeding and "sucking air" may seem advantageous in one perspective, there are other considerations.

The person who pulls the trigger is always responsible for everything the bullet does until it comes to rest. No way around that.

 

[Firehouse]

I believe Erich is the go to guy on this. According to his observations a 9mm JHP is barely discernible from a 45ACP when you're lying prone on a cold table.

 

[glypnir]

If you're shooting through a windshield, the 9 mm. Or maybe if they're in the old combat crouch, and you have to shoot through lots of stuff to get to something vital.

Otherwise, why not compare to a 9 mm +P JHP, since that's considered the best of the stoppers in 9 mm.

I'm assuming that MC means full metal jacket? I haven't seen that abbreviation before.

But I agree with Erich - placement is king.

My quibbles are with the queen, penetration. Just citing some cases where the justifiably vaunted 45 can have problems.

 

[Crazy K38]

well my preference is .40sw penetration is good as is knockdown, I don't want too much penetration though, the chance of hitting someone innocent behind them scares the crap out of me

 

[10-12]

Civilian self defense, the .45. If he is wearing body armor, the 9 MM FMJ.

Bill

 

[jfd]

RE: the specific part of your question asking about lung damage, I'll offer an answer based on many years in the Emer Rm and Operating RM environment...."it depends". Not trying to be a wise guy but it really does depend on what structure(s) are hit within the lung itself. Even a small caliber projectile will cause death by exsanguination (loss of massive qty blood), doing so potentially quite rapidly, if it tears or penetrates either the pulmonary artery or vein (major suppliers of blood to and from the lung). Body of the lung damage from any caliber projectile are capable of causing any other number of lethal injuries such as simple pnemothorax, hemopneumothorax, tension pneumothorax, etc. Your victims proximity to definitve medical care is another variable that will determine outcome. I'll end my lecture here but hopefully I've made the point, as many others have made over the years, that any bullet is capable of killing or doing significant harm, given the right circumstances. BTW, FWIW, my carry caliber is .45

 

[GatorFarmer]

Originally posted by 10-12:
Civilian self defense, the .45. If he is wearing body armor, the 9 MM FMJ.

Bill

Why? Neither is going to penetrate even an old IIA vest, let alone anything of recent vintage and higher threat level.

 

[FirebirdV8]

I have to agree with shot placement being king. For me it is all about how well you carry that caliber and how accurate you are with it. If you are good with a 40 use that, but if you don't like the muzzle flip, don't use it. same with any other caliber. My personal choice is 40 cal or 10mm, but I have a buddy who swears by 9mm. I have another buddy who swears by 45acp. Either way, I don't want to be hit by any bullet. Besides, I don't think the bad guy is going to stop and ask you which caliber of gun you carry before he decides to go after you.