Antique basics / No FFL required. Tune me up on these..

[MCM]

Have been reading up on Model 1's, Model 1 1/2's, Model 2 Army, etc.
I am just now considering these. As no FFL required for shipping is nice.
To my front door etc. As I understand it, prior to 1899 manufacture / or
1888 ammunition is OK to ship.

Should have got started yrs ago. But prices seem to be about the same as yrs ago?
(when I quit going to gun shows)
I am probably mistaken. But wanted to ask if thats the case.

If you were just getting interested in these, what would you go for? One of each seems logical.
But just wanted to ask the folks in the know. Am just thinking about picking up a few inexpensive examples as they come up.
Worn finish, pitting, cracked wood etc.
Just cool to own. Not interested in high dollar collectibles. Or is that just how it begins?

 

[hardknocks]

Good question

I was looking into this it seems state laws differ but I can't confirm.
I got worried and didn't do it.
YMMV

 

[schutzen-jager]

state laws do vary - here any firearm that takes a cartridge still available thru any channel are not antiques regardless of age but classified the same as modern ones - reproduction percussion + flintlocks are not antiques also classified as modern weapons - it would be a felony for any Nj resident to acquire a model 1 or 1 1/2 without getting a permit for each one -

 

[MCM]

Thats one reason I am asking. So far everything I have read, says its OK in Calif. But did read that states vary.

 

[mrcvs]

I would say, at best, the prices on these are flat, for your average run of the mill firearm that lacks condition. Maybe slightly decreasing.

Buy the very best you can and you should maybe see your investment increase a bit.

I would focus on a No 2 Army, preferably with a Civil War era serial number.

 

[MCM]

Thanks!, most were 5" or 6" right?
What numbers are in that range? Below 15,000?
Thanks again...

 

[glowe]

Model 2 came in both 5" and 6" barrel length. As for ship dates, anything under around 30,000 to 35,000 would qualify as being shipped in the Civil War era and the majority of them were probably purchased for use in the war. Whether they made it into battle is not known, but some lettered to Union Soldiers from the factory, some were bought by local and state governments and issued to troops, while still others went to distributors who sold them to soldiers.

 

[glowe]

I would say, at best, the prices on these are flat, for your average run of the mill firearm that lacks condition. Maybe slightly decreasing . . .

You may well be corect, but my take on the value issue is that the overall quality of what is available on the market is dropping, but the prices are remaining the same. Those with perfect function, decent finish & bore, and tight have risen in value, but most are in collections and do not come up for sale often. I have seen a lot of junk Model 2s sell for what good and better condition examples used to sell for, but there are just not that many solid Model 2s out there for sale.

As for the OPs question, one must remember that ammunition is just not available, so these guns cannot be shot. There are, however, many other top-break models that qualify as antiques in calibers like 32 S&W & 38 S&W.. These are much more refined and many are great shooters even today. Prices are low and quality is good. The models include:

32 S&W Single Action
32 S&W Double Action
38 S&W Single Action
38 S&W Double Action
32 S&W Safety
38 S&W Safety

 

[cgt4570]

Only a handful of states (you can probably guess which ones) have laws more stringent than the BATFE regarding bona fide antique firearms (manufactured prior to Jan. 1, 1899).

Dixie Gun Works does make a reloadable rimfire 'cartridge' for most of the old calibers (.32, .38, .41). There is a pocked machined off-center on the cartridge head that takes either a primer or a nail gun blank, depending on model. You put in the primer, fill with black powder, and seat a properly sized bullet or round ball with your thumb. The trick is to make sure the primer is at the top of the chamber, and centered under the firing pin.

I shoot my S&W .22 Tip-ups sparingly with modern .22 CB Shorts. They're basically a bullet and primer, with litter to no powder. Similar to the old indoor 'parlor' rounds. Not enough pressure to hurt the guns.

I recently traded into a pre-'99 Colt Single Action black powder frame that has a .38 Special barrel and cylinder installed. Since the frame is the only part that makes it a 'firearm' or not, it's still considered an antique in most states.

If you like long guns, any Mausers manufactured in Germany by Ludwig Loewe are exempt antiques. Since that company folded in 1898, it's very easy to prove antique status. I have a couple in 7mm Mauser. They were produced in several calibers.

Of course, Springfield Trapdoors in .50-70 or .45-70 plus most Remington Rolling Blocks are exempt as well. I have a few.

I have a few pre-'99 Marlin lever guns as well.

Good luck!

 

[MCM]

Added, Agree things can change, no idea on 41 long colt ammo. Used to be almost impossible to come by. But your right, the cowboy action craze a few yrs ago probably changed things a bit.
Doubt antique black powder rimfire will ever make a comeback. But I guess you never know!


Thanks, yes, am on Calguns.net almost daily.
(Lots of good and bad info there) lol lol
We have it bad, but not as bad as some states in regards to antiques.
And CR&R.
It seems Ca. just follows the federal guide lines when you get right down to it. So it could be worse.
I have read up a bit, and am 99.9% sure .32 rimfire ammo
is not being produced in any volume and is legal to import guns made prior to 1898
where ammunition is not currently being readily manufactured.

I do not plan to shoot these. Have enough to shoot already.

I do have a bunch of Colibri .22 ammo. (primer fired / no powder)
That am sure would not damage any .22

But aside from that, not planning to use these. Just wall hangers.
Have a couple, but no S&W. Good info here. Keep it coming.

 

[MCM]

I am finding out I need to become a lot more educated on these.... Even thought I thought I read enough to make my eyes bleed.
I can easily see my self jumping into a few of these based on low price and maybe "good" cond. alone. Then later finding out what the true market is on these. What I should be looking for and whats really going on. Antique grading / Cond standards ...etc... Is something I should get schooled up on...
Also, legality issues... seems .32 long OK, 22 short FFL required etc...

 

[cmansguns]

My 1st Model 32 Safety Hammerless (1888)

My focus has never been the real antiques, but I have acquired 2 that have hung around in the safe. One is an 1899 US Army Contract, Model 1899 US Army and that gun (shipped 1901) is got some interest on my part, so I keep it.

The other is a 1st Model 32 Safety Hammerless. This is a top break, tip up, (I have heard the term "lemon squeezer), that supposedly fires a .32 Short. It will not chamber a 32 Long so I am not aware of any ammo availability unless someone home rolls old BP.

Mechanically this gun seems fine, no missing parts, original hard rubber grips, but it is very cosmetically challenged to say the least. I would have to say the nickel finish is maybe 30-35% remaining.

Based on serial number (5195) matching on cylinder, butt, and barrel (visible when tipped up, between the "ears"), I would say it probably was in the fist year of production, however I have not Lettered this gun (and do not intend to).

I went no further into antiques and am not pursuing other examples, so if you would like to start with something like this and can assure yourself that it would be legal (under your State laws) for me (I hold a FFL, 03 (Curios & Relics)) to ship to you or your local 01 FFL then shoot me a PM...I guarantee you that the price will be very attractive as I would really like to have it gone.

 

[cmansguns]

another pic of 1st model safety hammerless

Added 1 more pic to show a modern 32 Long inserted into the 1st Model Safety Hammerless.

I did briefly look around to see if anyone had 32 Short but found none available, and certainly nothing loaded with Black Powder...so......again......a specimen that someone may want for a hole in a collection.

 

[H Richard]

You could start off with trying to put together "short" sets, one of each "issue". Such as this short set of Number 1's. A 1st Issue, a 2nd Issue, and a 3rd Issue. Then you could start on filling in all the "types" of each Issue. Then always being on the lookout for upgrading any of them.

 

[MCM]

Those are nice! Much nicer than the examples I am looking at.
(read / as price range) lol
I might start with one of each. 1, 1/1/2 & 2
Make a set then upgrade from there. But dont really have a plan.
I like blue over nickel. So, many I am seeing are rough...
Or maybe all the nickel is just gone?
And the lesser priced plated guns look pretty bad to me as there is often little left.
Again, am new to this..............
Will see what turns up...

 

[mrcvs]

I need to toss this out there...

The future with all this stuff is bleak. The younger generations are not interested other than those who collect that which is aesthetically pleasing...e.g., CONDITION!

You have folks who don't know a gun from a hole in the ground, and they collect those with condition. Case in point: The Wall Street Journal has ads placed by Rock Island Auction featuring guns with condition, first and foremost.

If it isn't happening yet, simple supply (lots of grey guns) and demand (few Millenials interested) dictates this has to happen.

I hate to be stereotypical, but have you tried to sell a house lately. If it's brand new, cheap particle board, hollow doors, and granite countertops...watch 'em line up with their checkbooks. Older, solidly built...you cannot give it away.

 

[Rambler42]

Added 1 more pic to show a modern 32 Long inserted into the 1st Model Safety Hammerless.

I did briefly look around to see if anyone had 32 Short but found none available, and certainly nothing loaded with Black Powder...so......again......a specimen that someone may want for a hole in a collection.

SGAmmo at SGAmmo.com has all the obsolete ammo I need. I get .32 S&W (short), .38 S&W (short), and .41-40 from them. Prices are reasonable and quick shipment.

 

[glowe]

SGAmmo at SGAmmo.com has all the obsolete ammo I need. I get .32 S&W (short), .38 S&W (short), and .41-40 from them . . .

This is one of my many pet peeves. I wish ammo websites would stop using the term "Short" when identifying 32 S&W and 38 S&W ammo. I know that even some foreign ammunition companies have joined in the act - shame on them!

Check out MidwayUSA for both calibers, since they are offering them cheaper than AGAmmo and have a wide selection of different brands available. I like this company and would even pay a premium to do business there. Like the financial support option for the NRA in their order process.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yup, idiomatic cartridge nomenclature can be interesting or aggravating.
In some times and places, .38 S&W was known as ".38 Regular" to differentiate it from .38 Special.
Then .32 S&W Long became the ".32 Special."

 

[MCM]

Got started today in the new adventure.
Went with the advice starting with a #2 as a starting point.
Not a perfect collector grade gun by any stretch. But didn't pay top dollar.
Its tight, functions fine & and you have to start somewhere. SN 6445
Chisel marks kept the price down I am sure. But don't really care. Adds character.