Antique S&W 1st. Mod. DA in .44 Russian Date

[Exmilcop]

I find myself in a bit of a pickle up here in the Great White North. I have an antique .44 Russian long frame late manufacture. I'm told all the frames were made prior to 1899, but up here, the cut off date for antique status is 1898. Is there any good folks out there who know when the frame was made? It's serial number is 45245. There was an old thread about exactly this and as I recall, the gentleman found out that his pistol did qualify as antique status according to the RCMP. His serial number was IIRC just a little higher than mine.

 

[Frontier44]

If I’m wrong, I’m sure I’ll be corrected but according to US law and the ATF any revolver manufactured in 1898 or before classifies as an antique. As I understand, Smith & Wesson manufactured all frames for the DA New Navy prior to 1898 thus causing the model to be classified as an antique even though the model was sold well into the 1900’s it is still classified as antique (according to US law). Baring any conflicting state or local laws, US citizens can purchase that particular model and have it mailed directly without an FFL.

 

[mmaher94087]

".. (according to US law)..". Yes, but not Canadian law. 1897 or earlier is antique and it cannot be chambered in a currently available cartridge, so the Model 1's are not antique although manufactured in the 1850's.

 

[Exmilcop]

".. (according to US law)..". Yes, but not Canadian law. 1897 or earlier is antique and it cannot be chambered in a currently available cartridge, so the Model 1's are not antique although manufactured in the 1850's.

The Canadian cut off date is Jan.1, 1898. Anything manufactured after that is restricted, regardless of caliber. How stupid!

 

[Frontier44]

".. (according to US law)..". Yes, but not Canadian law. 1897 or earlier is antique and it cannot be chambered in a currently available cartridge, so the Model 1's are not antique although manufactured in the 1850's.

… and that is why I say, with no intention to disparage others or their current locale, I am glad I live in the United States.

 

[cgt4570]

For absolute proof that it meets the Can requirement (it does), you'll probably have to fork over the cost of a factory letter (and specifically ask for frame manufacture date).
If you were a SWCA member, Roy Jinks (S&W company historian for longer than I've been alive), would probably write you a letter attesting to that.

 

[BMur]

Floor records

Ed’s floor records might help with this one. Might be very close to that Jan 1898 date though. Factory records would list shipping date. The floor records list the assembly date. They might beat that cut off date. No telling what the exact date was that they cast that frame. That would be the applicable date. It could have easily been cast in the 1880’s in bulk.

You can also approximate when it was shipped by existing markings on the frame and barrel. If it has the S&W logo stamped on the right side frame it was shipped post 1896. If it has a caliber stamp on the left side barrel it was shipped after 1901. So a letter won’t help if it has a caliber stamp.

Murph

 

[Exmilcop]

Gentlemen, thank you for the input. The whole saga just gets better and better! I've put the pistol up for consignment sale. The consignee told me that he has some concerns over the late production serial number, but agrees that it is indeed antique status. Then he told me (and here I'm just shaking my head) that he'd contacted the RCMP previously about a similar high serial number pistol. He pointed out that on their own data base, they have pistols numbered into the 50,000 ser. no. range listed as antique. When he pointed out that his pistol pre-dated the ones listed, he was told (catch this!) that "each case is decided on it's own merit"!!! SERIOUSLY????

 

[glowe]

Glad to hear from my neighbor to the deep south of Canada.

All Roy can state is that all frames were made prior to 1899. If one takes his notes in the book to heart, it does not help your case. Manufacturing Dates: 1881 - 1913

As I understand it, Ed Cornett is the only person that has the documentation that can provide exact manufacture dates for several top-break revolvers from 1880s to WW1. You should PM him and ask about your serial number. Those production logs are not available to anyone in Canada as they are owned and kept by Ed. Of course, you might not like the answer, since it is indeed late in the serial number range. #45,829, for instance, shipped in 1904.

 

[BMur]

Specs

Gentlemen, thank you for the input. The whole saga just gets better and better! I've put the pistol up for consignment sale. The consignee told me that he has some concerns over the late production serial number, but agrees that it is indeed antique status. Then he told me (and here I'm just shaking my head) that he'd contacted the RCMP previously about a similar high serial number pistol. He pointed out that on their own data base, they have pistols numbered into the 50,000 ser. no. range listed as antique. When he pointed out that his pistol pre-dated the ones listed, he was told (catch this!) that "each case is decided on it's own merit"!!! SERIOUSLY????

It actually could be that some examples have been altered in some way that disqualifies them as antique status. One could be a caliber change. Very common with the 44 Russian revolver. Especially a long frame. A simple cylinder swap to 44WCF and you’re in a different world.

Murph

 

[Exmilcop]

Thank you all. The RCMP has decided that my pistol is indeed antique status. I've put it in for consignment so if (and when) it sells, I'll just keep the money put by for better example. It's funny with these pistols up here. There will be nothing on the market and then 2-4 pistols will show up within days of each other. I do envy you guys in the US when it comes to these lovely old pistols. Not only do you have a more selection but your prices are very reasonable in comparison. I keep my eyes on your auction houses like RIA and Morphy's, and I'm gobsmacked at the prices they realize. If I were to put my Frontier model up for sale I'd take a big hit, price wise.

 

[moralem]

Antique S&W 1st. Mod. DA in .44 Russian Date

Would love to see a picture of yours……here is my recent acquisition. I am still trying to date this one, but might just relent and get a letter.

 

[glowe]

RIght handed shooter that carried on his right side for a very long time. I recall that there used to be a guy that re-checkered hard rubber. Those are such a nice set of mottled stocks, I wonder if anyone does this work today?

The work that I had seen long ago consisted of using standard checkering tools and then lightly buffing with a very long knap wheel and very fine polishing compound. red rouge.

 

[Exmilcop]

Would love to see a picture of yours……here is my recent acquisition. I am still trying to date this one, but might just relent and get a letter.

Beautiful pistol and from what I've read here, quite rare with the mottled grips. As requested, here's a pic of the one I had picked up.

 

[Kinman]

Gentlemen, thank you for the input. The whole saga just gets better and better! I've put the pistol up for consignment sale. The consignee told me that he has some concerns over the late production serial number, but agrees that it is indeed antique status. Then he told me (and here I'm just shaking my head) that he'd contacted the RCMP previously about a similar high serial number pistol. He pointed out that on their own data base, they have pistols numbered into the 50,000 ser. no. range listed as antique. When he pointed out that his pistol pre-dated the ones listed, he was told (catch this!) that "each case is decided on it's own merit"!!! SERIOUSLY????

Friends of mine have run into the "each case decided on its merit" while crossing the Canadian border from the U.S. The Canadians take a very dim view concerning D.U.I.'s and understandably so. Their laws have changed considerably over the years and recently have included a list of "crimes" that make it next to impossible for entry into their country. As of now if you have ever been convicted of a D.U.I. in the United States you have about a 5-10 year wait before you can apply for an entrance Visa. If you were arrested for a D.U.I. in the states and the court lowered the penalty to "Reckless Driving" due to a prior stellar record and low breath alcohol reading that still counts as a D.U.I. in Canada and is considered "Dangerous Driving." This along with other convictions may render many Americans ineligible for entry into Canada. Oddly if you ask a few border guards you will get different answers and there is always the issue with a guard just not liking the cut of your jib and turning you around. Oddly in our past we visited Canada on a nearly weekly basis, had property on a lake just four miles over the border. It was always the American side we had the most difficulty with, especially after 911. The Canadians were always friendly and sped us regulars through the crossing with a simple "Got anything to declare?" I'm planning a bear hunt in Manitoba the fall of 2024, plan on keeping my nose clean for sure.

 

[tarro3220]

As I understand it, Ed Cornett is the only person that has the documentation that can provide exact manufacture dates for several top-break revolvers from 1880s to WW1. You should PM him and ask about your serial number. Those production logs are not available to anyone in Canada as they are owned and kept by Ed. Of course, you might not like the answer, since it is indeed late in the serial number range. #45,829, for instance, shipped in 1904.

Why doesn't Ed publish those production logs? They're long out of copyright so there are no legal issues there.

If anything, the increased transparency would help the collecting community.

Seems awful selfish to keep them to himself; what if something went wrong like a fire or flood and ended up ruining them forever?