Any leading issues with heavy lswc loads?

kpmtns

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I have a box of 158g LSWC hardcast bullets that I have been loading with 5.0g Unique for a really nice 38+p load, and would like to load these up to seriously higher velocities with 2400 (which I use with JSP's). I have seen several loads listed with 12 or more grains of 2400 under a 158g LSWC, and wondered if these are good as far as leading goes. Earlier in my reloading days, I loaded up similar hardcasts to 750fps with Bullseye like I did with my 148g soft LWC bullets, and had a ton of leading. (I know, surprise, surprise.) After that cleaning nightmare, I'd like to make sure I never get in that position again. Let me know what y'all think. FYI--these will be shot out of either my 4" 686-5 or my 4" Python. Thanks!
 
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I have a box of 158g LSWC hardcast bullets that I have been loading with 5.0g Unique for a really nice 38+p load, and would like to load these up to seriously higher velocities with 2400 (which I use with JSP's). I have seen several loads listed with 12 or more grains of 2400 under a 158g LSWC, and wondered if these are good as far as leading goes. Earlier in my reloading days, I loaded up similar hardcasts to 750fps with Bullseye like I did with my 148g soft LWC bullets, and had a ton of leading. (I know, surprise, surprise.) After that cleaning nightmare, I'd like to make sure I never get in that position again. Let me know what y'all think. FYI--these will be shot out of either my 4" 686-5 or my 4" Python. Thanks!

Not one of my manuals list a load for the 158 grain LSWC +P .38 special that goes to 12.0 grains of 2400. The closest to your load is the famous "gasp" Speer number #8 manual which lists a maximum load of 11.0 grains of 2400 in the +P section. The next highest load is 10.5 grains. I checked 5 different manuals and most list the maximum load from 7.8 to 9.5 grains of 2400. I would suggest you start your loading process around 5.0 grains and work your way up slowly 1 grain of less at a time. Each revolver is a law unto its self when you start down the maximum load path. Safety and caution are still the best way. It has served me well for many years. Good luck, James
 
Depends on the lead alloy and the lube. My caster makes my magnum/revolver rounds from 50% wheel weights and 50% linotype and water quenches them. They're hard as woodpecker lips and don't lead at 1200-1400fps.
 
I load my wheel weight lead bullets in .38 Special and .357 Magnum up to around 1200 fps without leading issues. I'm casting a 173 grain LSWC, but its the same basic idea. I use 2400 and am very happy with it for my heavy .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads.
 
I buy my lswc and and if I load them hot I put a little of thompson's bore butter on the bases and it seems to help prevent leading. It's a lube for muzzle loaders.
I would like to start casting my own and from what i have found on a casting forum there are different bullet lubes you can use or make that prevent leading.
 
Lead can be driven REALLY hard!

What determines how fast a lead bullet can be driven?

The question would be better framed like this: What determines how fast a lead bullet SHOULD be driven?

The difference is simple, alloy is the only thing that determines how fast a lead bullet can be driven. That being said, a bullet that is hard but too small and driven hard from your firearm may lead like crazy while in another's all may be well. Same way as a soft bullet that is driven too hard but properly sized, lead too.

What HAS to happen is that the bullet matches bore size + .001" and the alloy is formulated to withstand the pressure exerted on it by the powder charge.

I have driven wheel weight casted bullets to 1800fps with no leading, while harder bullets have leaded my bores terribly @ 900fps.

Lee Precision has a chart that comes with their alloy tester. Look at it online to determine what your bullets are casted to do. If you don't know the alloy used call the caster or load some at minimum, median and maximum velocities/pressures.


Are you saying that they 148gr Bullseye load caused leading with the 158gr LSWC? Guess why? Too low a pressure! Bump it up to 3.5gr and try it again. I have shot that load out of EVERY 38/357 handgun I have without leading. A 2.7gr charge isn't going to get the bullet to obturate properly, again, causing leading.

I'm just guessing here but this is what I think you are up against. Hard nominally sized bullets with a powder that doesn't develop high enough pressure to get them to work right.

Just my thoughts.
 
info from missouri bullet company

thought I'd share info from their web sight

The MBC Difference

Hardness-Optimized Bullets
Most cast bullet shooters don't know a lot about the properties of the lead alloy they're shooting because they haven't been educated about it. If you want to learn a little bit about some important cast bullet facts, then please read on.

A common conception is that when it comes to lead bullets, harder lead equals less leading. This is a false perception! To explain this surprising statement, it is necessary to discuss the physics of getting the bullet out of the barrel and how lead residue comes to be deposted in the bore. When the powder charge ignites, pressure is generated. This pressure is measured in "copper units of pressure" (CUPS) and expressed in thousand of pounds per square inch. The heavier the powder charge, the greater the CUPS. Naturally, the purpose of generating pressure in the cartridge case is to force the bullet out of the case mouth and on down the barrel.

Lead is a soft metal. Its hardness is expressed on a standard scale, called the Brinell Hardness Number (BHN.) The BHN of the bullet interacts with the pressure generated by the burning powder. The mechanism of this involves the effect of the generation of thousands of pounds per square inch of pressure which causes the base of the bullet to expand, or "obturate". Properly obturated, the base will have expanded beyond its original diameter which has the effect of "sealing the bore" against the explosive pressure of the gases burning behind it. Properly sealed, and working in conjunction with the lubricant in the lube groove, the bullet will thus not allow gases to escape forward from around the base of the bullets, which prevents it from shaving lead from the bullet body and forcing it into the bore grooves (otherwise known as "leading".)

This failure to obturate ("seal the bore against onrushing gases") causes leading which is a chore to clean and is a major obstacle to accuracy.

An optimally hard lead bullet is simply one which obturates at a given pressure sufficiently to seal the bore against the gases which would otherwise "cut through" the soft lead (called "gas-cutting", forcing molten lead into your rifling. A bullet which is too hard won't obturate and seal the bore, because the gas pressure is insufficient to expand the base of the bullet. A bullet which is too soft at a given pressure will experience excessive base expansion and vaporization of the lead, causing leading.

There is a formula for optimal bullet hardness which is simple and it is worth knowing:

Optimum BHN = CUPS / (1422 x .90)

The CUPS of your reloads is published in the reloading manuals. Take a typical .45 ACP load, using a 200-grain LSWC bullet – 5.0 grains of Bullseye. This load develops 900 FPS and is in common use among IPSC and IDPA gunners. The reloading manual shows that the pressure generated by this load is 20,000 CUPS. So, the formula for optimal bullet hardness is

20,000 / 1279.8 = 15.62

There it is! For this application – shooting a 200-grain LSWC at 900 FPS requires that you use a bullet with a BHN of 16 to 18 (round upwards a couple of BHN points for flexibility.)

You may be asking why shooters don't know much about this whole bullet hardness optimization business. The reason is basically that the large manufacturers, for ease of production, use a standard alloy for all of their cast bullet construction, an alloy which has a Brinell Hardness Number of approximately 24. Why do they do this? It's simple – one standard alloy simplifies logistics for the big manufacturers and, equally importantly, a bullet this hard ships well by standing up to getting dinged around during transportation. The fact that their bullets are too hard and cause leading and aren't very accurate because of improper obturation is something they'd really rather you weren't aware of. This explains why neither their packaging nor product information will ever refer to the BHN of their products.

Along those lines, how many boxes of cast bullets – from any source – state the BHN on them?

At the Missouri Bullet Company, we optimize bullets for your intended application. We don't take a "one size fits all" approach to manufacturing your bullets. Every box of our bullets displays the BHN, which we constantly sample and monitor. We take the time to create lead bullet alloy that is specialized for the bullet hardness that works best for you. It is a fact that we spend significantly more time alloying our lead than we do in making the bullets that come from it and we do this to provide you the right bullet for your application.
 
SmithCrazy--Yeah, the problem was with not pushing the hard bullets hard enough. I learned that lesson after spending hours cleaning lead.

bnewc75--that's very interesting data. I guess with a hardness tester, I can find the sweet spot for the various hardcasts I have.
 
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I buy my lswc and and if I load them hot I put a little of thompson's bore butter on the bases and it seems to help prevent leading. It's a lube for muzzle loaders.

Lube on the base of your bullets will contaminate your propellant causing failure to fire and squib loads. Don't do it.
Dan
 
I sorry if I passed on some bad advice. A co-worked told me about lubing the base with the bore butter. I tried it and it worked for me. I haven't had a bad one yet. The back of the tube of bore butter says that "it seasons the surface of the bore, yet will not chemically react with black powder or Pyrodex to create the fouling that other lubricants cause." I know that smokeless is not the same as black or Pyrodex but I figured I would try it anyways.
Smith Crazy and bnewc75 thanks for the advice.
Like i said before, I would like to get into casting but there seems to be a lot to learn before I start.
This is a great site with a lot of very helpful people.
 
I can not add to the excellent advice given above, but have a question. If you are shooting these out of a 686 and Python, why 38 spl and not full size 357 magnum cases? Just wondering:)
 
I am shooting them out of 357 cases. I just loaded a bunch to 38+P power levels. I also load bullseye 148g LWC loads in 357 cases, I just up the powder .1g.
 
BTW-5.0 gr. of Unique behind a 158LSWC really isn't a +P load-it is a full standard pressure loading.
 
I am shooting them out of 357 cases. I just loaded a bunch to 38+P power levels. I also load bullseye 148g LWC loads in 357 cases, I just up the powder .1g.


Oh, ok. Wasn't sure as you said:

"I have a box of 158g LSWC hardcast bullets that I have been loading with 5.0g Unique for a really nice 38+p load,"
 
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