Any liability with modifying a gun used for self defense?

[sheriffoconee]

This threads just slay me....
IN MY OPINION...deadly force is authorized or not....
IF you authorized to use deadly force, then what difference does it make what you use??? Machine gun, pinned grip safety, improved sights, handloaded ammo, boiling oil, car bumper, boarding axe, length of rope, or candlestick in the library.
We have beat liability into every conversation about deadly force....instead of spending time making sure civilians and peace officers understand that YES, you can use deadly force if you follow the law.
If you are authorized to pull the trigger, then pull it. Or use your boarding axe....or your modified rail gun with the Kung Fu grip....cause it really JUST doesn't matter

 

[wihunter]

Who makes the "Kung Fu grip" sounds like something I need. LOL

 

[Reggie Dunlop]

what difference does it make what you use??? Machine gun, pinned grip safety, improved sights, handloaded ammo, boiling oil, car bumper, boarding axe, length of rope, or candlestick in the library.

Back in college my roommate employed his johnson to fend off a female intruder and he got arrested for it, which was wrong because we had a restraining order against her and her grandchildren.

 

[sheriffoconee]

his johnson?? or his Johnson machine gun??

 

[cshoff]

This threads just slay me....
IN MY OPINION...deadly force is authorized or not....
IF you authorized to use deadly force, then what difference does it make what you use??? Machine gun, pinned grip safety, improved sights, handloaded ammo, boiling oil, car bumper, boarding axe, length of rope, or candlestick in the library.
We have beat liability into every conversation about deadly force....instead of spending time making sure civilians and peace officers understand that YES, you can use deadly force if you follow the law.
If you are authorized to pull the trigger, then pull it. Or use your boarding axe....or your modified rail gun with the Kung Fu grip....cause it really JUST doesn't matter

In a perfect world, where the evidence and circumstances surrounding every defensive shooting were perfectly black and white, and where every prosecutor believed in your 2nd Amendment rights as strongly as you do, and where civil suits were the exception rather than the rule, you would have a valid point. The truth is, even if you do everything right and every step you take is completely by the book, there are no guarantees that you won't end up in front of a judge or jury trying to defend yourself from some bogus nonsense.

 

[sheriffoconee]

True, and if you want to protect yourself from litigation then you should disconnect the electricity to your house, stop driving, never own a swimming pool, boat, or set of stairs....or hire an employee, or do anything else in this world.....
On the other hand you can learn the laws in your jurisdiction about self defense and deadly force, avoid trouble, and go about your daily life....

We have hashed this ground before....but the cases where litigation was successful against an HONEST self defense shooting over the ammo or the weapon are statistically insignificant, if they truly exist at all.....insignificant enough for it to be of no concern in the big picture of life....

There is NOTHING anyone can do to avoid "bogus nonsense" .....worrying about it is futile and time consuming....worry about something more important than the trigger spring in your Glock

 

[cshoff]

True, and if you want to protect yourself from litigation then you should disconnect the electricity to your house, stop driving, never own a swimming pool, boat, or set of stairs....or hire an employee, or do anything else in this world.....

Except we have contingency plans in place for those occasions. We have home owners insurance, car insurance, and boat insurance in addition to all of the smoke alarms, fire extinguishers, and life jackets. We obey the rules of the road as best we can, but we take precautions to cover our liabilities because we realize that anything can happen, despite our best efforts to make sure it doesn't.

On the other hand you can learn the laws in your jurisdiction about self defense and deadly force, avoid trouble, and go about your daily life....

I'd guess that most of the people who have replied to this thread have already done just that.

We have hashed this ground before....but the cases where litigation was successful against an HONEST self defense shooting over the ammo or the weapon are statistically insignificant, if they truly exist at all.....insignificant enough for it to be of no concern in the big picture of life....

I don't know about you, but if I have to pay my attorney several thousand dollars to defend me, even if the case is clear-cut and completely defensible, it is VERY significant to me. Most of us simply don't have that kind of disposable cash reserve on hand. I'd much rather take precautions to limit my liability BEFORE I have to spend that money, especially when it is SO EASY to do so.

There is NOTHING anyone can do to avoid "bogus nonsense" .....worrying about it is futile and time consuming....worry about something more important than the trigger spring in your Glock

The same could be said for not "tinkering" with that spring in the first place. There are plenty of other things we can do that will be a much greater asset to us in a lethal force encounter than a "lighter trigger" or a "pinned safety". It never ceases to amaze me to see people try to use "hardware" as a way to overcome their "software" deficiencies. A properly trained person with a bone-stock handgun is always going to have the advantage over the poorly trained person with the souped-up master blaster.

 

[Reggie Dunlop]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheriffoconee
True, and if you want to protect yourself from litigation then you should disconnect the electricity to your house, stop driving, never own a swimming pool, boat, or set of stairs....or hire an employee, or do anything else in this world.....

Except we have contingency plans in place for those occasions. We have home owners insurance, car insurance, and boat insurance in addition to all of the smoke alarms, fire extinguishers, and life jackets. We obey the rules of the road as best we can, but we take precautions to cover our liabilities because we realize that anything can happen, despite our best efforts to make sure it doesn't.

Quote:
There is NOTHING anyone can do to avoid "bogus nonsense" .....worrying about it is futile and time consuming....worry about something more important than the trigger spring in your Glock

The same could be said for not "tinkering" with that spring in the first place. There are plenty of other things we can do that will be a much greater asset to us in a lethal force encounter than a "lighter trigger" or a "pinned safety". It never ceases to amaze me to see people try to use "hardware" as a way to overcome their "software" deficiencies. A properly trained person with a bone-stock handgun is always going to have the advantage over the poorly trained person with the souped-up master blaster.

Man, does it suck to live the life you advocate? Boring and paranoid is not for me. Think I'll go handload some self-defense ammo and tinker with my blaster (it's not master level yet). Who knows, I might even change the grips and if I should really get a wild hair I could pop in a magazine that holds 2 rounds more than the bone-stock mag the factory supplied new. Now I'm spinninmg out of control, trying.....to.....resist........the.......temptation.........of a .....hivis......front...sight......must.......be...strong.....old...chum.

 

[cshoff]

Man, does it suck to live the life you advocate? Boring and paranoid is not for me. Think I'll go handload some self-defense ammo and tinker with my blaster (it's not master level yet). Who knows, I might even change the grips and if I should really get a wild hair I could pop in a magazine that holds 2 rounds more than the bone-stock mag the factory supplied new. Now I'm spinninmg out of control, trying.....to.....resist........the.......temptation.........of a .....hivis......front...sight......must.......be...strong.....old...chum.

The life I advocate? I'm not advocating anything more than common sense. If you prefer to live without fire extinguishers, seat belts, air bags, smoke alarms, and insurance, then go right on ahead. In addition, if you feel you must try to use hardware modifications to make up for software deficiencies, then more power to you. Just keep in mind that you are only fooling yourself and nobody else.

 

[APS]

The same could be said for not "tinkering" with that spring in the first place. There are plenty of other things we can do that will be a much greater asset to us in a lethal force encounter than a "lighter trigger" or a "pinned safety". It never ceases to amaze me to see people try to use "hardware" as a way to overcome their "software" deficiencies. A properly trained person with a bone-stock handgun is always going to have the advantage over the poorly trained person with the souped-up master blaster.

Well said.

 

[minconrevo]

Personally I will not modify a carry gun in way that might make it less dependable. I will not install light action kits nor will I go polish crazy. Hopefully the gun already has night sights on it from the factory; if it doesn't I will add them.

I'm not for exterior affectations, such as fancy grips (with "killer" skulls or anything else on them). My carry guns don't have anything on them that a police issue counterpart would not have. If fact, I prefer to carry something that is either a common on or off-duty for my area.

 

[Reggie Dunlop]

If you prefer to live without fire extinguishers, seat belts, air bags, smoke alarms, and insurance, then go right on ahead.

I have all of these.

In addition, if you feel you must try to use hardware modifications to make up for software deficiencies, then more power to you.

I do not feel "I must". I just dig that I can do it because I want to.
I also do not live in fear of things that just won't happen.
Nobody is going to take your weapon apart and look at the striker spring or give a fat rat's arse if the grip safety is pinned.
And where do you draw the line? My Colt OACP came with a 6 round mag but I use Chip's 7 rounder in it. My M&P came without night sights and I switched them. I have different grips on my 686. I replaced the striker spring in my SW99 with a Glock 5# and then smoothed all the mating surfaces of the trigger system - now it has a trigger pull that compares to a S&W revolver, both SA and DA. If I use it to defend myself will someone take it apart and inspect it? Heck no.
Can anyone present one case where anything like this was significant? If so, I would sure like to see it.

 

[tom turner]

I see validity in both sides of this debate, but especially appreciate the words of the good sheriff of Oconee County, GA! His common sense may save the live of a deputy . . . or one of us who takes his advice.

Train well, learn the law, keep a level head and if trouble comes do your best without undue hesitation. Graveyards are probably filled by good folks who have sudden doubt and wait . . .

I agree that you won't have any way to change what happens AFTER the shooting . . . at the split instance when your very life may hang in the balance while you react to your mortal threat.

Thanks! Worry and paranoia about what MIGHT happen may get you killed.

 

[cshoff]

I have all of these.



I do not feel "I must". I just dig that I can do it because I want to.
I also do not live in fear of things that just won't happen.
Nobody is going to take your weapon apart and look at the striker spring or give a fat rat's arse if the grip safety is pinned.

You are naive if you think your gun will not be seized as evidence after a defensive shooting. It may also be the subject of strict scrutiny if there is any aspect (whether real or imagined) surrounding the shoot that causes a prosecutor to go that direction. Your words, "it just won't happen" notwithstanding, it HAS happened and a couple of instances have been cited in this thread.

And where do you draw the line? My Colt OACP came with a 6 round mag but I use Chip's 7 rounder in it. My M&P came without night sights and I switched them. I have different grips on my 686. I replaced the striker spring in my SW99 with a Glock 5# and then smoothed all the mating surfaces of the trigger system - now it has a trigger pull that compares to a S&W revolver, both SA and DA. If I use it to defend myself will someone take it apart and inspect it? Heck no.
Can anyone present one case where anything like this was significant? If so, I would sure like to see it.

I suggest you read the ENTIRE THREAD before you ask questions I've already answered. I already mentioned what modifications I thought were acceptable. And a few cases where this has been an issue have already been mentioned here.

Read before you type.

 

[Reggie Dunlop]

You are naive if you think your gun will not be seized as evidence after a defensive shooting. It may also be the subject of strict scrutiny if there is any aspect (whether real or imagined) surrounding the shoot that causes a prosecutor to go that direction. Your words, "it just won't happen" notwithstanding, it HAS happened and a couple of instances have been cited in this thread.

I can't find anything to back up your statements. A ton of stuff has been sited, but nothing PROVEN.

I suggest you read the ENTIRE THREAD before you ask questions I've already answered. I already mentioned what modifications I thought were acceptable. And a few cases where this has been an issue have already been mentioned here.

Read before you type.

I can not read everything you post, I try, but it is so wrong I just can't get all the way through it. And there is NOTHING in what I have read that would induce me to think as you do.

We disagree on much of this, which is OK because I never thought I could sway your thinking on this. Nor will you sway mine, and I think you are the naive one here and paranoid also. See, I have a different view of this too.

Now I will take my own advise and just walk away from something that can only be a waste of time from this point on.

 

[cshoff]

I can't find anything to back up your statements. A ton of stuff has been sited, but nothing PROVEN.

You need someone to prove to you that a firearm you use in a defensive shooting will be seized as evidence? I'm sure every LEO and attorney on this site can vouch for that. I have an acquaintance that has been without his 1911 for going on two years now. It was used in a defensive shooting in 2009.

I can not read everything you post, I try, but it is so wrong I just can't get all the way through it. And there is NOTHING in what I have read that would induce me to think as you do.

We disagree on much of this, which is OK because I never thought I could sway your thinking on this. Nor will you sway mine, and I think you are the naive one here and paranoid also. See, I have a different view of this too.

Now I will take my own advise and just walk away from something that can only be a waste of time from this point on.

Do what you want to do. I couldn't care less. You came into this thread with some kind of chip on your shoulder, you threw out a couple of fallacious claims without any reference to back them up, and then tried to personally insult me by calling me "boring and paranoid". Frankly, with that kind of attitude, I wouldn't expect you to be willing or able to put your preconceived notions aside for a few moments and actually try to look at things objectively. Your response is typical of someone who has nothing of value to add to the conversation.

 

[sheriffoconee]

If you shoot someone, the gun is going to the crime lab. In fact, one of my agency Bushmaster AR's with a AAC silencer is sitting at the lab right now cause it was used a week ago today to shoot someone.....
It is, IN MY OPINION, totally irresponsible of an agency to hold it any longer than necessary than to complete the investigation and after the DA makes a decision to prosecute or not.
That has nothing to do with increased liability involving the modification of a firearm used in a defensive shooting.

 

[st regis]

"HARRUMPH!"

 

[Lost Lake]

If you shoot someone, the gun is going to the crime lab.
It is, IN MY OPINION, totally irresponsible of an agency to hold it any longer than necessary than to complete the investigation and after the DA makes a decision to prosecute or not.
That has nothing to do with increased liability involving the modification of a firearm used in a defensive shooting.

Exactly my original question. The gun will be confiscated we think, and a gunsmith will go over it. Modifications will be noted. Does anyone believe that simple mods like trigger jobs and safety removal etc. could end up feeding a shark lawyer with the ammo he needs to paint your intentions as less than exemplary?

I'm not asking anyone to prove anything. I'd like to know how the members here feel and think.

 

[turbo38gn]

Exactly my original question. The gun will be confiscated we think, and a gunsmith will go over it. Modifications will be noted. Does anyone believe that simple mods like trigger jobs and safety removal etc. could end up feeding a shark lawyer with the ammo he needs to paint your intentions as less than exemplary?

I'm not asking anyone to prove anything. I'd like to know how the members here feel and think.

Ok, again... we have a LTC for protection, we use it under the circumstances we are allowed to. Don't see what diff a trigger job, ammo or anything else could be pointed out to make us guilty.. The gun is supposed to kill!!! What does a trigger spring have to do with anything. We aren't talking about an accidental shooting ...