Anyone here reload 38 Colt Short & Long?

[bedbugbilly]

I'm getting ready to play around with loading some 38 Colt Short and Long in both smokeless and black powder. Will be shooting them out of a New Vaquero and eventually either a Richards & Mason conversion or a 1872 Colt open top.

I know that I have read where some fellows reload the 38 Colt short cartridge to use in certain competition shooting as they feel it loads easier. Hopefully someone here can provide some information on what dies you use?

I currently use Lee dies for loading my 38 spls and 9mm. I can size the casings witht he 38 spl sizing die, I can flair with a universal flair die and I believe seat the bullet with 9mm seating die? My question is on the crimp.

I seat and crimp in two operations as I use lead bullets that I cast. I cast a number of designs but thought I'd use a Lee 356-120-TC in the Colt Short. My mold drops them at .358 so I shoot them "as cast". In the Colt Long, I'll probably use the Lee 358-150-RN.

My question is "what do you you use for a crimp die?" On the Colt Long, I think I can adjust my 38 spl FCD to put a roll crimp on them. My quandary is what to use for the Colt Short as far as a crimp die?

I bell the mouth the very minimum to let the bullet "sit" to seat. Normally on the 356-120-TC bullet I taper crimp when using it in the 9mm loading.

Someone suggested a .380 crimp die for the Colt Short but that would also be a taper crimp die would it not? Can I taper crimp this bullet in a Colt Short casing and have it work O.K.? I'm thinning that the 9mm crimp die would work also but again, that would be a taper crimp.

For those that load the 38 Colt Short for competition, what do you use in regards to a crimp on it - taper or rolled? And what die?

I tumble lube in paste wax/alox which seems to work just fine out of my 38s. The 356-120-TC has the one single lube groove - I could seat to that and roll crimp in to it if I could find a roll crimp die that would work on it. If not, I could seat a little deeper like I do in a 9mm casing and taper crimp it.

Or, am I worrying too much about using a taper crimp on it even thought the full of thumb is to use a roll crimp on revolver rounds?

Your thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[armadillo]

I would recommend that you do some more research on the 38 Colt Short and Long. They are not the same diameter as the 38 S&W Special.

It was originally an "outside lubricated" heeled bullet (like a 22 rimfire).

Remington still loads the Short cartridge, but with a modern style crimped in bullet.

 

[Jellybean]

The three dies that make up my Lee .38 Short and Long Colt set are marked:
sizer, .38/.357
expander, .38 S&W
seat/crimp, .38 auto

They don't make as many dies as a lot of people like to think.

Many taper crimp dies will also roll crimp, you'd have to check on the ones you have available to be sure.

9mm cases are tapered and not straight like the .380.

 

[bedbugbilly]

armadillo - sorry to disagree but the 38 Colt short was the parent to the 38 Colt Long which was the parent to the 38 Special which was the parent to the 357 Magnum. A 38 Colt Short and Long can be fired in a 38 Special.

The 38 Colt Short was originally made for converted Colt 1851 Navies such as the Richards & Mason and the 38 Colt Long for the later Colt DA Army. Yes, originally "heeled bullets" due to the over size bores. The '51 Navy having a bore size of .360 as an example.

Do some checking and you'll see that Starline makes 38 Colt Short as well as Long brass - both of which are easily loaded with a .358 bullet and they can be fired out of a 38/357 if you don't mind the bullet jump.

Uberti/Pietta "conversions" and 1872 open tops are currently being produced which will chamber these rounds as well as the 38 Special. Some of the models are clearly marked 38 Long/38 Special. The bores on these "reproduction" conversions and open tops are made with the standard .357 bore of our present day 38/357s.

I currently have around a 100 Remington Colt Short Cases as well as 200 Winchester Colt Long cases - both of which are the same dimensions as a 38 Special with the exception of the length - and yes, I have tried them in my chambers. The 38 Colt Long is about a 1/10 of and inch shorter than the 38 Special casing. A 38 Colt Long casing can be made out of a 38 Special Casing by trimming it down if a person wants to take the time - I prefer to save the work and just by the 38 Long casings.

Thanks Jellybean for the info on the dies. I have an expanding pin already for a .38 S & W which I can easily change out in my expanding die. Someone had told me that a 9mm might work for the crimp but what you say makes sense. Looks like all I'll really need to pick up is a .380 auto seating die and a .380 crimp die. I'll see what I can scare up for thiose and I should be all set.

Thanks very much for the help - greatly appreciated!

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Since you are working with modern revolvers and modern repo's, go with the 356-357 diameter bullets. I would crimp with a 9mm or 380 crimp die. You may more have fun with loading with Black Powder. SASS rules require a minimum of 15 grains black to qualify for BP class in competition, and you will have trouble getting that much in a short case. A lot of guys have Davis derringers, you can get one in 38 special and shoot the Colt cartridges in it. Ivan

 

[armadillo]

armadillo - sorry to disagree but the 38 Colt short was the parent to the 38 Colt Long which was the parent to the 38 Special which was the parent to the 357 Magnum. A 38 Colt Short and Long can be fired in a 38 Special.

The 38 Colt Short was originally made for converted Colt 1851 Navies such as the Richards & Mason and the 38 Colt Long for the later Colt DA Army. Yes, originally "heeled bullets" due to the over size bores. The '51 Navy having a bore size of .360 as an example.

Do some checking and you'll see that Starline makes 38 Colt Short as well as Long brass - both of which are easily loaded with a .358 bullet and they can be fired out of a 38/357 if you don't mind the bullet jump.

Uberti/Pietta "conversions" and 1872 open tops are currently being produced which will chamber these rounds as well as the 38 Special. Some of the models are clearly marked 38 Long/38 Special. The bores on these "reproduction" conversions and open tops are made with the standard .357 bore of our present day 38/357s.

I currently have around a 100 Remington Colt Short Cases as well as 200 Winchester Colt Long cases - both of which are the same dimensions as a 38 Special with the exception of the length - and yes, I have tried them in my chambers. The 38 Colt Long is about a 1/10 of and inch shorter than the 38 Special casing. A 38 Colt Long casing can be made out of a 38 Special Casing by trimming it down if a person wants to take the time - I prefer to save the work and just by the 38 Long casings.

Thanks Jellybean for the info on the dies. I have an expanding pin already for a .38 S & W which I can easily change out in my expanding die. Someone had told me that a 9mm might work for the crimp but what you say makes sense. Looks like all I'll really need to pick up is a .380 auto seating die and a .380 crimp die. I'll see what I can scare up for thiose and I should be all set.

Thanks very much for the help - greatly appreciated!

My response is based on my experience searching for ammo for an old Colt Army DA which would not allow a 38 Special cartridge to be inserted and the 8th edition of "Cartridges of the World" (page 253).