ar 223 ammo

[jeremy82]

i just started loading 223 an i got varget powder and winchester wsp rifle primers with 55gr sp . i have a huge supply of military 556 brass they had crimped primers, a pain to remove i sized all cases and polished to realize the primers have a slight difference why is the diameter diff or do i need special primers for military 556 brass? and when seating bullets and crimping the bullet they move slightly left and right but dont come out . i loaded reg rem 223 brass with this result. theres no channelure on 55gr speer sp this is my first rifle ammo and when i size and chamfer and expand then seat my pistol ammo it takes some pressure to seat and the bullet would be good n tight before crimp, not 223 what am i doing wrong ?????????

 

[growr]

One of the best investments you can make for processing your military brass is the Dillon Primer Pocket Swaging tool. It wages the crimp out and also will give you a very uniform pocket as well. I have processed literally hundreds of thousands of casings in both .223 and .308 as well and have had great results.

Some people will use a champhering tool to cut the crimp out which is fine if you can be uniform with how much you remove.

All of my military casings accept Standard Small Rifle primers. I use a lot of CCI and Winchester.

Your seating question sounds like your die is not seated far enough down in the press to crimp the casing,

Use a factory fresh round as your set up gauge, Be sure to back the bullet seating stem way out. Insert the new round and raise the ram arm, thread your die body down until you can feel it touch the top of your casing. Lower your ram arm slightly and turn your die body down a tiny amount and then fully raise the arm. Remove the casing and then using a fully sized casing run it through the die, remove and compare it to the NEW casing until they match.

Next, put the factory round back into the press, raise the ram arm to the top and thread the seating stem until it touches the bullet firmly.
Lock the seating stem down as you have now established your overall length of your cartridge based on a 55 grain bullet and having it correct for magazine useage.
Lastly take a sized casing and a bullet and seat it as a test. Should be crimped properly and is at magazine length.

Make tiny adjustments if needed, always comparing to the factory round and then lock your die with the lock ring and test it again. If you are satisfied, all is done. go make a bunch of ammo!!

Hope this helps you out somehow...

Randy

 

[drivinghomeatack]

randy, that is what I was going to suggest as well.

 

[W.E.G.]

If the bullets wobble after seating, you are way over-crimping.

I've reloaded about 20,000 .223 rounds, and fired every one of them in an AR15 or a Mini-14.

I never crimp.

Neck tension alone is fine.

Try this:
Seat a bullet without any crimp.
Now, grab that round and press the bullet end of it against a pine board.
You'll make a dent in the board.
The bullet won't be pushed back in the case.

Then ask yourself why you were crimping .223 rounds in the first place.

 

[.45mtngun]

I have been reloading for an AR-15 for about 2 years now and do not crimp the bullets either. As W.E.G.mentioned, when pressed against the loading bench they don't move. I talked to someone at Sinclair's about it and he didn't crimp either but said some of the different brands of bullets did tend to move, so crimping was needed. Patrick Sweeney mentions that he crimps just enough to take the sharp edge off the case mouth, which is very little. Hope this helps.
Jim

 

[jeremy82]

thanks for input ill try tommorow , so what about the military primers after being pressed out you have to cut out left over ring? can i use a drilll bit or do i have to buy something else ? im used to roll crimping my pistol ammo as a last step and rifle dies from lee have a factory crimp that leaves four small lines in neck ? maybe die isint in far enough? i followed instructions and it said lower ram till it touchs shell holder than back out half a turn ? will it hurt if i lower and retry i wouldn't think so ? and does 25.5gr of varget sound right for starting load it fills case up to bullet , im used to pistol 38 special filling half the case it seems like alot at this rate 1lb of varget will make maybe 300 rds ?its going quick for 31.00 a lb

 

[Frank46]

When I first started loading for a semi auto the first thing I did was order once fired 5.56 brass. In those days prices were very much cheaper than today. All I had to use was the rcbs primer pocket swager. And believe me I used it in spades. So much so that at one time I had three complete sets. Powder was H335 and bullets were 55grain pulls from some dealer. All of this was reloaded in batches with a rcbs rockchucker yep a single stage press. As time moved on I bought a Dillon primer pocket swaging tool. There are two screw holes in the body of it and when swaging would take it outside and bolt it to an old table. That took care of a problem I think many who start reloading for the ar series rifles/carbines. Now ramping up things a little more I got the 223/5.56 conversion kit for my Dillon 550. I do use the powder measure that camme with the Dillon except every tenth round I double check with a lyman electronic scale. Course now that I'm loading 62 grain bullets the powderr went from H335 to winchester 748. So start off slow and add equipment as money becomes available. You won't regret it. Most reloading manuals have some loads marked as accuracy loads. Start out with one of these to see just how well you and the rifle do. Hope this helps. Frank

 

[Jswiney9]

as another poster said, a l ot of the 556/mil brass will have to be swaged. I put a VERY VERY slight crimp but not much. FWIW I use hornaday 55gr FMJ w/cannel

 

[Neumann]

I'm new to center fire rifle, and find that even commercial .223 and .308 primers are crimped. I ordered a Dillon primer pocket swager. There's no way a hand reamer is going to yield consistent, round results. 60,000 psi is nothing to fool with.

I'm using a taper crimp, with a separate die from the seater. That's standard with a Dillon press, and my preference with a single stage press too. It's one more pull and a lot fewer headaches.

A Dillon case gauge is a wise investment too. There's no better way to set up the resizing die for proper headspace.

 

[growr]

Jeremy82,
Myself and several others have suggested the Dillon Primer Pocket Swager because of the results it delivers. This tool will make your primer pocket woes simply disappear. The end result is a consistent primer pocket that you can now easily re-prime. In no time at all you will wonder how you EVER got along with out it and it has the infamous Dillon NO BS Warranty!

While you are ordering it, you might just as well get the Dillon Case Gauge for you .223 as well as it is also a VERY valuable tool not only for die set up but for checking the final product as well.

Randy

PS. I do NOT work for Dillon....just use their products and have had to use the NO BS Warranty and it truly is NO BS! Their product is worth many times over what you pay for it.

 

[MichiganScott]

I'm new to center fire rifle, and find that even commercial .223 and .308 primers are crimped. I ordered a Dillon primer pocket swager. There's no way a hand reamer is going to yield consistent, round results. 60,000 psi is nothing to fool with.

I'm curious as to the brands of commercial .223 and .308 that have crimped primers. I've never seen one in 45 years of picking up range brass.

I agree a swager is the way to go. I've swaged thousands of military .30-06 brass, but never bothered with 5.56, mostly because I still have a stash of several thousand commercial purchased many years ago.

I've never crimped. If I don't feel that I have a strong enough bullet pull, I chuck the expander ball in a drill press and polish it down a couple of thousands using abrasive paper. Not only does it increase bullet pull, but the polishing actually decreases the force needed to pull the ball back out of the neck.

WEG is correct. It sounds like the OP may be actually over-crimping. The neck will swell and loosen up if too much crimp is applied. Using a factory round to set your crimp die will only work if your cases have been trimmed to the exact same length as the factory rounds and if the factory rounds use the same type of crimp.

No one addressed the OP's question about military brass using different diameter primers. The answer in no, they don't. They both use 0.175" diameter primers. I suspect you are having issues with what's left of the crimp.

 

[m1gunner]

On crimped primers with commercial ammo, Winchester did it off and on with their WWB line since at least 1999. I have gotten Fed commercial 223 loaded in LC brass with crimped primers (not the XM stuff, .223 loadings).

I still have some unfired, crimped primer winchester 223 ammo on hand.

Swaging the pocket works far better than cutting. I used the RCBS on several thousand cases and it worked fine. I understand the Dillon is a step up from the RCBS.

 

[DEG]

thanks for input ill try tommorow , so what about the military primers after being pressed out you have to cut out left over ring? can i use a drilll bit or do i have to buy something else ?

As others have mentioned a primer pocket swager works best. The RCBS pocket swager combo is around $35.

im used to roll crimping my pistol ammo as a last step and rifle dies from lee have a factory crimp that leaves four small lines in neck ? maybe die isint in far enough? i followed instructions and it said lower ram till it touchs shell holder than back out half a turn ? will it hurt if i lower and retry i wouldn't think so ?

If you are using the Lee factory crimp die, you don't back it out a 1/2 turn. You lower til the touches the shell holder then lower the shell holder and turn in down another 1/2 turn to give it "cam over". A very similar adjustment is made to the resizing die.

Instructions

and does 25.5gr of varget sound right for starting load it fills case up to bullet , im used to pistol 38 special filling half the case it seems like alot at this rate 1lb of varget will make maybe 300 rds ?its going quick for 31.00 a lb

That load is an acceptable starting load. Don't worry about how much it fills the case. It's common for the max load for pistols such as 38, 9mm or 45 to not fill up the case. However, there are quite a few compressed loads for magnum pistol rounds.

 

[jeremy82]

primer pocket

thanks michigan scott for answering. my real problem is the military crimp that is left over after removing primer? is this what makes the primer pocket to small. does the swag tool cut the left over primer crimp away back to standard size? i have lee die set and i deprimed a mix of brass some military some commercial then i polished and sized and chamfered .so during removing the primers the lee die resized the neck? then when seating some were going in with no pressure ?also im used to the lee pistol die set . a size die ,a expander die , and a seat n roll crimp die.the 223 lee die has a size die,a seater die and afinal crimp die ,does the seater on this have a roll crimp, why am i over complicating this i can make perfect roll crimp pistol ammo.... and how does my die set full length size and do i do this and how . and if i fire form it then what do i do . i have spent abotut 20 min trying to load due to being busy i can probably figure this out i just havent got back out

 

[m1gunner]

thanks michigan scott for answering. my real problem is the military crimp that is left over after removing primer? is this what makes the primer pocket to small. does the swag tool cut the left over primer crimp away back to standard size? i have lee die set and i deprimed a mix of brass some military some commercial then i polished and sized and chamfered .so during removing the primers the lee die resized the neck? then when seating some were going in with no pressure ?also im used to the lee pistol die set . a size die ,a expander die , and a seat n roll crimp die.the 223 lee die has a size die,a seater die and afinal crimp die ,does the seater on this have a roll crimp, why am i over complicating this i can make perfect roll crimp pistol ammo.... and how does my die set full length size and do i do this and how . and if i fire form it then what do i do . i have spent abotut 20 min trying to load due to being busy i can probably figure this out i just havent got back out

The swage tool doesn't cut the case, it forms the primer pocket back to the proper profile it had before it was crimped.

On your dies, it is imperative that the sizing die (for 223) is adjusted till it touches the shell plate at full stroke, then tightened at least 1/2 turn more. I had a Lee set that had an oversized expander plug. It was opening the case neck too much after the resize. With a micrometer, some wet-or-dry paper, and a drill, I adjusted the plug to where I wanted. Lee would also have replaced the expander plug had I asked.

The seater has no roll crimp, it probably will do what they call a factory crimp, but the taper crimp collet type die Lee sells is what works best for crimping these rounds, and it is done as a separate step after bullet seating.

 

[jepp2]

On your dies, it is imperative that the sizing die (for 223) is adjusted till it touches the shell plate at full stroke, then tightened at least 1/2 turn more.

I'm sure on your die/shell holder set this gives you the proper shoulder set back for proper headspace, but it isn't the answer on all dies.

I have a Lyman 223 die that no matter how much you turn it past first contact with the shell holder, it will not set the shoulder back enough to meet the SAAMI specification (translation they will not chamber in a wide variety of AR's). I learned this the hard way.

I have a Redding die that if I set it up that way, it will set the shoulder back at least 0.030" past the maximum setback and can result in catastrophic case head separations.

Get way to measure and set your die correctly. There are many good tools out there to do this. 1/2 turn could be 0.040" change in headspace.

 

[m1gunner]

A sizing die that will not size to SAAMI specs is defective. Did you contact Lyman?

Never heard of a die that produces cases with excess headspace. Is this a feature of these dies done for a special purpose?

Far and away, 99% of the problems new reloaders to 223 have is not sizing the case enough, and result in failure of the bolt to go completely into battery on loading. What can be made to work in a bolt gun simply won't work in an AR.

 

[jepp2]

A sizing die that will not size to SAAMI specs is defective. Did you contact Lyman?

Never heard of a die that produces cases with excess headspace. Is this a feature of these dies done for a special purpose?

I did not contact Lyman on the die. My reason being that the die is over 40 years old and based on other contacts I have had with Lyman on issues with their products, I didn't expect them to do anything.

Not a special purpose die at all. Just a standard Redding die. On set up they tell you to leave the die 1/4 to 1/3 turn above the shell holder when you start adjusting your die for proper headspace.

I have never found a die that would give proper headspace following the manufacturers normal recommendation of 1/4 turn past contact with the shell holder. I use a RockChucker press so I don't have much flex impacting sizing.

Do you ever actually measure your headspace? (I'm just trying to understand, I am not trying to be a smart a__.)

Keep in mind that die manufacturers want the least issues with their products. So if you set the shoulder back 0.010" too far, that is Ok with them. They aren't interested in you maximizing your case life. As long as they chamber life is good.

 

[jeremy82]

primer pocket swager

i have one on the way, a swager kit, also i think you guys are right i think during sizing the die expands the neck too much , the bullets i bought have no channelure and they should tightly seat by itself , maybe i have a defective die i will measure and see whats going on . well i learned a few things one is about crimped primers, and i aprecciate all the info , one more tool purchase .now i can see how reloading is more expensive than buying ammo , now im looking at a used single stage press to keep setup for crimping and primer swaging. so i wanted to get into reloading cheap . who was i kidding, anybody wanna donate a used press or other reloading equip

 

[Beans]

i have one on the way, a swager kit, also i think you guys are right i think during sizing the die expands the neck too much , the bullets i bought have no channelure and they should tightly seat by itself , maybe i have a defective die i will measure and see whats going on . well i learned a few things one is about crimped primers, and i aprecciate all the info , one more tool purchase .now i can see how reloading is more expensive than buying ammo , now im looking at a used single stage press to keep setup for crimping and primer swaging. so i wanted to get into reloading cheap . who was i kidding, anybody wanna donate a used press or other reloading equip

Not everything related to relaoding has to be purchased new. Check the local yard sales and estate sales.
.
Examples: I have picked up a Dillon Square deal set up for .45 ACP for $30.00, a Lyman Spar-t for $20.00, A Dillon beam scale. like new, for $15.00 all from different yard sales.
.
A local auction had a box of reloading stuff I picked up for $20.00 at the end of the auction. Contents= 1500 CI small pistol primers,300 CCI large rifle primers 15 sticks of assorted lube, a m-16 cleaning kit in the pouch, a couple of primer pick up tubes, several used bore brushes. a half can of gun oil, a 30-06 broken case extractor, a AK front sight adjustment tool plus some other small bits and pieces, All tossed into a carboard box. Everyone had left after the guns and hunting equipment was sold and no one wanted this "stuff".

At a local estate sale a freind of mine picked up a disassembled Dillon 550B in a box marked "reloading stuff" for $150.00 along with a couple sets of dies. Several small peices were missing but it was 99% complete just completely disassembled. He assembled the Dillona and sent it to Dillon for refurbishing. According to him Dillon did it at not cost except for the shipping

The deals are out there you just need to look for them