AR-223 reloading question...

[toad67]

Have a couple of AR's that I've had for quite a while. One has 90 rounds thru it, and the other is still NIB. Since I'm not really an AR guy, and they're not worth any more than I payed for them, I figured that I might as well just shoot them.
Both guns have 16" pipes, one has a 1:8 twist, while the other has a 1:9 rate. I have 2,000 55 gr FMJ's, 8 pounds of H335 and a bunch of CCI 41's.
Since the barrel lengths are the same, do you guys think that it's possible to load some that will shoot decent in both guns? Not looking for sub-moa, just something that is acceptable for plinking.

 

[nksmfamjp]

I have done this before with success.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Do you really think the difference in a 1:8 vs.a 1:9 twist is going to make any difference in a 55 gr FMJ "plinking" load...?

Should probably be unmeasurable. Even with sophisticated equipment.

Cheers!

P.S. per Hodgdons, 23.0 to 25.3 gr should get you there (and back)...

 

[Skeet 028]

...as far as loads...start at bottom and work up. there will come one that will probably shoot realy well with the other ok. Stop there. I have 2 short ones and they both shoot my 24 in Varminter Bushmaster loads acceptably well. You may find one that does great in both...good luck...BTW there are other powders that may work better than H335.

 

[growr]

Load them and shoot them....no discernable difference until you reach much heavier bullets.

Randy

 

[toad67]

Do you really think the difference in a 1:8 vs.a 1:9 twist is going to make any difference in a 55 gr FMJ "plinking" load...?

Should probably be unmeasurable. Even with sophisticated equipment.

Cheers!

P.S. per Hodgdons, 23.0 to 25.3 gr should get you there (and back)...

I didn't think it would either, but I just thought that I'd throw it out there, since I've never reloaded for 223.

...as far as loads...start at bottom and work up. there will come one that will probably shoot realy well with the other ok. Stop there. I have 2 short ones and they both shoot my 24 in Varminter Bushmaster loads acceptably well. You may find one that does great in both...good luck...BTW there are other powders that may work better than H335.

There may be better powders, but I have an 8 pounder of H335 that I don'r have much use for otherwise....

 

[ColbyBruce]

If you Google “H335 powder uses”. This pops up:


“This spherical powder originated as a military powder and is perfect for the 5.56 NATO/223 Remington. Multiple applications can be found in the 222 Remington and other varmint cartridges. Prairie dog shooters will find this a favorite, as J.B. Hodgdon has for years!”

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

H-335 is my 223 load with 50 grain Blitzking. Check Sierra's manual for the 55-grain load, it should do very well for you! I think the use Remington 7 1/2 primers, if you can find them, they would be best.

My 55gr 223 load was with around 26.0 WW748/ CCI Sm. Rifle Mag./ mixed brass, this load shoots 1/2 MOA in everything I've tried it in! Except the Stainless Mini 14 I loaded it for! My FMJs were surplus from the ARMY when they switched to 62 grain green tip. In 1984/5 I loaded 20,000, still got about 3,000 left and a box of 1000 projectiles. In 1984 they were $8/1000, primers were $7.50/1000 by the 5000 case. 748 was about $56/8 pound can. Fired brass was 4 cents, I dried up Central Ohio for awhile soaking up 20,000. Handloading was about 2.5 cents a round cheaper than PMC factory FMJ! That was about 21 or 22%.

My loading dies in the 80's were a set of RCBS Small Base. I gave them to an ex B-I-L for his M-4 clone and use The Black Box RCBS (Taper Crimp) for my AR loads and a Redding Competition die set for Bolt Guns.

Ivan

 

[243winxb]

55 gr fmj are not the best for accuracy. Blasting ammo. Load & shoot.

 

[rockquarry]

Newer powders have come along, but often they offer no advantages over what is already available. The late Bob Hagel, one of our premier gunwritwers did much load development and experimentation. H335 was his favorite powder for use in the .223 for the then-standard slow twist barrels and 55 grain bullets. That information is somewhat dated, but since you have plenty of H335, you should be able to work up some good loads. Best to use book data, however, to verify data from an Internet forum.

 

[rockquarry]

55 gr fmj are not the best for accuracy. Blasting ammo. Load & shoot.

Generally a very true statement. I don't use them, but with 2,000 as the original poster stated he had on hand, might as well do some serious load development and get the most accuracy possible from the bullets.

 

[toad67]

Generally a very true statement. I don't use them, but with 2,000 as the original poster stated he had on hand, might as well do some serious load development and get the most accuracy possible from the bullets.

That was my thought, since I have them, as well as all the rest of the stuff, I might as well load them up.

 

[chiefdave]

Be sure to invest in a quality small base die set.

 

[rockquarry]

Be sure to invest in a quality small base die set.

Find out that you really need one first. In most situations, they are not needed.

 

[GypsmJim]

Be sure to invest in a quality small base die set.

I just started reloading .223 myself. What is this small base die set?

 

[Pisgah]

I have no doubt that, with proper juggling of propellant charges, will work just fine.

 

[rockquarry]

I just started reloading .223 myself. What is this small base die set?

A small base size die sizes brass a bit smaller than SAAMI specs. If your chamber is out-of-spec tight (rare occurrence), you may benefit from a small base die.

 

[venomballistics]

I play with it a little bit.
It's not a grail caliber but it's so prolific, it shouldn't be ignored.
My cast load is similar to a 22hornet in power, and operates well with an Odin gun works light adjustable buffer

 

[rwsmith]

I load from....

...2200 (and lower) to 3000 fps with 55 and 63 grain bullets for my two ARs. Both shoot just great. The twist rate you have in both barrels are best for heavier bullets. I have 1:7 so my minimum bullet weight is 55 gr. Your's should be similar. I am SURE that you can find a load that will shoot well in both rifles. If for some reason no, you can tweak the springs and the buffer weight to suit. Have fun. I shoot targets and plink

 

[Skeet 028]

Small base die sets...some people shooting semi autos may need them. The only time I really needed SB dies was when someone gave me about 3500 308 cases. Thunk I was rich...machine gun fired ammo. after getting about a 1000 that would work correctly I sold the rest to the scrap yard The only rifle that brass fit loaded normally was an Indian Ishapour SMLE

 

[Imissedagain]

As stated, the OP's powder on hand, is used for 223/5.56.
I started 223/5.56 loading with the Lee Zero Error Kit.
Soon after the only dies in stock were Small Base.
Still use the Lee Kit.

55gr FMJ boat tail bullets grouped about 1.5", to POA,
with a stock Colt SP1 and the 3x scope back in the '70s,
at 100yds, Prone or off my elbows on a bench.

Have a 1:12 No.1V in 223 and two 1:7 6920s.
Bought Speer 70gr Semi-Spitzers long ago and have
63gr/80gr/85gr on the way from Powder Valley.
Use 3031 and 4198 for the .224" loads and the 458 loads.
Varget just arrived and will load as soon as the bullets arrive.
New Geissele SSP trigger and the T36

Will finally get time to give the No.1V a thorough test.
Bought it a few years ago, for the stocks, at a fair price,
but when you buy a used Varmint rifle, you take a chance.
Was okay with 50gr bullets and the pic of the breech block
compared to the No.1H block ain't pretty.
Might send the block to Ruger at some point and may
re-chamber or new barrel/caliber.
Will run some 40/45/50/55 bullets soon and see what's up.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I remember seeing the Lee fancy kits, around here they were $38 while the standard kit was $15-18. I can see that making fine ammo for a bolt gun, but having problems by the third loading in ARs or Remington semi autos.

Turning out high accuracy ammo is sometimes easy, and sometimes very difficult! My best Loads in my Bolt actions are all loaded FL Sized and the seem to be very accurate in my AR. I think a lot of that has to do with the Ogive design of the bullet and which 223 chamber an AR has. The 223 Wylde chamber seems to be far more forgiving than the standard 223 Remington chamber. My Cooper 21, the barrel is marked 223 REM., however the chamber is either a 5.56 NATO or a Wylde. IT has far more "Free bore" that a REM. chamber. I seat the 50 grain Blitzkings to touch the lands. It will fit in most metal AR mags, but not all and not P-Mags. If you go slow and keep the barrel cool, you can stack as many bullet holes on top of each other as you wish. It shoots 1/4 to 1/2 MOA in my AR. I have a very similar load from Black Hill Ammo, that uses a 50 grain V-Max. It is made to fit all Magazines, and shoots less than 1/3 MOA in the bolt gun but zero to 1/4 MOA in the AR. My opinion is it is the Radii not the bullet length that is the difference (and that is around 1% difference radius!)

Eariler in this thread I mentioned I loaded a huge quantity of 55 grain FMJ that were surplused Winchester bullets. While I have almost 1000 bullets left, I cannot get that primer any longer because the lead standards have changed and so has the primer compound.

Back in the day I tested the "1984" Hornady 55 gr FMJ w/C against the same looking Winchester. The Winchester had repeatedly smaller groups! The Unbranded bullets (AKA seconds) of the day were far worse than Hornady's! All I'm trying to say is the various brands change machinery and processes, so quality is always changing. (Lot Numbers Matter!)

Ivan

 

[chiefdave]

A small base size die sizes brass a bit smaller than SAAMI specs. If your chamber is out-of-spec tight (rare occurrence), you may benefit from a small base die.

I agree that a MILSPEC AR will digest just about anything. With a high end match grade rifle chamber tolerances are a lot tighter. I have that jammed up tight T-shirt.

 

[rockquarry]

I agree that a MILSPEC AR will digest just about anything. With a high end match grade rifle chamber tolerances are a lot tighter. I have that jammed up tight T-shirt.

Yes, but it's worth trying a standard sizing die first. Often it will work fine even in a tight chamber. Lots of erroneous information on Internet forums regarding the "need" for a small base size die. It's almost gained a fad status.

 

[TheTinMan]

Yes, but it's worth trying a standard sizing die first. Often it will work fine even in a tight chamber. Lots of erroneous information on Internet forums regarding the "need" for a small base size die. It's almost gained a fad status.

I agree. If a small base sizing die is necessary for cartridges to chamber easily, something probably is amiss. Maybe you bought some “machine gun brass” and yes that’s a real problem. Use the small base die the first time you resize that brass - and only the first time. (I do have a small base die for that purpose.) However, if your chamber is too tight for SAAMI spec cartridges, that also is a problem. A bottle necked rifle cartridge shouldn’t expand much in diameter. Remember neck sizing? I know that an AR extracts a spent case faster than a bolt action but it still should have time to spring back. Otherwise extraction would be a bear. Maybe your rifle is over-gassed and cycling too fast? In the long run, that will cause lots of problems.

One scenario where you might need a small base die is if your chamber gets really dirty. Normally I would say “clean it instead of over-working the brass”; however, you might be running a high round count competition or expecting a long duration 2-way firing range situation.

 

[WR Moore]

Some time back-maybe 10 years-the die makers changed their tune on small base dies. They now suggest the use only if your chamber is tighter than SAAMI spec. However, there's a fly in that: the specs of the chamber your once fired brass was originally fired in.

Chamber drawings for .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45 mm show some differences, the mil-spec chamber being generally larger. But not by much-theoretically. M16s and the M249 aren't generally noted for tight chambers, generous is often a kind description. The DOD doesn't give a hoot about reloading and figures SAAMI is a pole dancer at a local bar.

I've never needed a small base die to load ammo for self loading rifles. Minor interference generally gets corrected during the loading cycle.

 

[rockquarry]

I realize many don't use a case gauge and it's possible to get by without them, but I've been using one since I began handloading for ARs several years ago. Running a sized case and/or loaded cartridge through a case gauge will go a long ways toward providing 100% reliability.

I use a JP Enterprises "Match" gauge. I'm not familiar with other brands, but they may work as well. I used to gauge both the sized case and the loaded cartridge, but found doing only the case was sufficient. Gauged brass has worked 100% so far in three Colt ARs. I use a standard size die, not a small base die.