AR10 .308 or .308 Bolt Action

[marathonrunner]

Guys, I have been wondering for close quarters, I think most would say a AR10 .308 would be not wise because of muzzle blast, slower follow up shots, and hearing loss. From what I have read, most soldiers who were serving in the middle east, it would take 5 to 6 shots to stop a bad guy using 5.56. So wouldn't it make more sense to use a .308 and be one and done? In WWII soldiers used the M1 Garand for everything. I am happy with my 5.56 but I am constantly reminded it's a poor stopping round. But I would think proper shot placement it would not matter the size of the round.

OK then if I am not going to get an AR10, I really do like the .308 in bolt action. I love bolt action for the simplicity and accuracy you can't get with an AR platform. Bolt actions also seem much cheaper. anyway your thoughts

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

There is always the balancing act of "Which gun is best all round!" The answer is NONE! That is why you are to buy all you want.

I like my sniper rifles, the 308 is at 13 pounds and the 338 is at 18.5.
I like that 8-8.5 pound AR with a scope, That is good for varmints to 500 yds. I can carry it for hours.
But for things that go bump in the night, I love a 12 gauge pump.
And EDC for me, is a J-frame and cell phone.

Not one will do everything well, but I try to be flexible!

Ivan

 

[gonerydin]

My thought is 12 gauge for CQB.


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[LVSteve]

The issues with 5.56 in the various sandboxes are largely due to the 14.5" barrel of the M4, the use of a round designed to penetrate body armour and the lack of meat on the meth crazed/opioid doped targets. The end result is neat .223 holes unless you make a CNS shot.

If you think 5.56 won't do it in the home defense scenario, get an AR in 300 Blackout or 6.8 SPC.

As for the AR10, they can be built up to get very close to bolt action accuracy WITH THE RIGHT AMMO. It's not happening with bulk 7.62 NATO surplus. I agree that there are plenty of .308 bolt guns at great prices that will be accurate straight out of the box. Big plus is that they are often lighter than the AR10 as well.

 

[bigggbbruce]

Guys, I have been wondering for close quarters,
OK then if I am not going to get an AR10, I really do like the .308 in bolt action. I love bolt action for the simplicity and accuracy you can't get with an AR platform.

What is it you want. Close up or long range. AR10 works pretty good out to 200 yards.. or is that to close.

 

[nimbly]

I got an AR10. A PSA. I like it, but it is heavy.

 

[marathonrunner]

Good reading. I was looking at the MP AR10 and there seemed to be some who had major issues with reliability. I have read and heard from others that AR10 will never be as reliable as most AR15's for X amount of reasons, such as exractors breaking, overgassed, undergassed, short stroking, feeding issues because chamber is too small etc... If that is true, I think Bolt action if I do get a .308 would be nice. I have a ruger american 5.56 and that bolt gun is a lot of fun.

 

[moralem]

My go to .308 is the colt 901 platform. I can even swap out the upper with a 5.56 if I like. Some folks kid me about the modularity feature of the rifle but for me it works. It is a great rifle, a bit pricey but it is a well built, reliable rifle. I use a variety of ammo and gun is accurate as I can be with bad eyes and all.

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[Dave Lively]

If someone can shrug off 5 rounds of 223 I would not count on them falling like they got hit with the hammer of Thor when shot by a 308.

While the military has to use some sort of FMJ you do not. The older 55 grain ammo would tumble and break up but the newer 62 grain ammo is designed to favor penetration so it often results in 22 caliber holes. A 30 caliber hole would be more effective but in either caliber something that expands, tumbles or breaks up would be much better.

My vote would be to use something other than 62 grain green tip ammo in your 5.56 and buy a bolt gun to satisfy your desire for a 308.

After looking at a few of the low cost bolt guns I ended up buying a Weatherby Vanguard select made by Howa instead. At about $500 after I bought rings it was more expensive than the low cost rifles but I think I got what I paid for. Good trigger, nice recoil pad, smooth bolt, seems well made in general and Weatherby guarantees 1 MOA 3 shot groups with good ammo. I just put a scope on it last week and have not had a chance to take to the range but if it lives up to the accuracy claims I will be very happy with it.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

After looking at a few of the low cost bolt guns I ended up buying a Weatherby Vanguard select made by Howa instead. At about $500 after I bought rings it was more expensive than the low cost rifles but I think I got what I paid for. Good trigger, nice recoil pad, smooth bolt, seems well made in general and Weatherby guarantees 1 MOA 3 shot groups with good ammo. I just put a scope on it last week and have not had a chance to take to the range but if it lives up to the accuracy claims I will be very happy with it.

I think the Weatherby Vanguard rifles are a much overlooked rifles, as were the S&W 1500's and others made by Howa. Weatherby's specs and unique appearance make them a little more expensive than most, but my personal results seem to vindicate those rifles.

All of my Vanguards were bought in the 1985-1987 time frame and were the VGX finish package and looked like True Weatherby rifles with all the glitz and glitter that scares some people away. I bought 3 and still have one. First was a 22-250 with their heavier barrel. The factory target showed a group of 1.25" using a Remington trash ammo (The old guarantee was 3 shot in 1.5") The salesman told me, if I could only get that poor of group the gun shop would replace the rifle. I mounted a 6.5-20x40mm Veri-X III Leupold on a one price Redfield type base. Using Federal Premium ammo 50 gr HPBT I did have a little trouble getting the scope adjusted. The first 3 Three-Shot groups were one hole each, end of box of ammo, end of session!

I went to the LGS the next day and put a 300 Win Mag on lay-away. They allowed the gun to be shipped to Mag-na-port while on lay-away, so I had Williams front and rear barrel sights installed and the gun ported. By the time the gun returned, I had everything paid for. Installed a Leupold 3-9x30mm Compact scope on weaver bases (so I could use the iron sights also) It worked out very well with Federal Premium 200 grain GameKing bullet. Several Three-Shot groups in .25 to .5 inch groups. I continued to practice with that gun and ammo combo and was shooting offhand groups at 100 yards in the .5 inch size group regularly. This is the gun I still have and keep 4 to 8 boxes of that ammo on the shelf at all times! I ended up giving this gun temporarily to my Pastor, but it turned out to be too much gun for him. So I bought him a VGX in 270 Winchester. I never saw a person shoot so bad on paper, then turn around and drop game like my Pastor, but he could not group on paper less than 3 inches! I would shoot .25 inch groups with the same box of ammo. He took the gun to Wyoming for a Prong Horn hunt. He bagged a running Prong Horn running at about 175 yards with one shot, and two years latter a running Mule Deer at about 200 again with one shot! His Prong Horn is still in the top 5 for record Prong Horns!

Your results may very, but it shouldn't be by much!

 

[marathonrunner]

If someone can shrug off 5 rounds of 223 I would not count on them falling like they got hit with the hammer of Thor when shot by a 308.

While the military has to use some sort of FMJ you do not. The older 55 grain ammo would tumble and break up but the newer 62 grain ammo is designed to favor penetration so it often results in 22 caliber holes. A 30 caliber hole would be more effective but in either caliber something that expands, tumbles or breaks up would be much better.

My vote would be to use something other than 62 grain green tip ammo in your 5.56 and buy a bolt gun to satisfy your desire for a 308.

After looking at a few of the low cost bolt guns I ended up buying a Weatherby Vanguard select made by Howa instead. At about $500 after I bought rings it was more expensive than the low cost rifles but I think I got what I paid for. Good trigger, nice recoil pad, smooth bolt, seems well made in general and Weatherby guarantees 1 MOA 3 shot groups with good ammo. I just put a scope on it last week and have not had a chance to take to the range but if it lives up to the accuracy claims I will be very happy with it.

I was also looking at the vanguard but the price was OK but I was expecting a chrome lined barrel. I do not like carbon steel as it is more maintenance.

 

[gnystrom]

You can buy 5.56 or better yet 223 ammo that will do the job. My local cops are using standard varmint ammo in their M4's.

 

[BB57]

My thoughts and opinions on the accuracy potential of semi-auto rifles:

I shot service rifle competition for years with M14s and M1As and I built a number of Garands for competitors in DCM matches back when bedding and metal work wasn't the problem it is in CMP matches.

The match grade M14s and M1As would all hold at least 1.5 MOA 10 round groups with M852 match ammo, (but all nets were off with the newer lots of M118). Mine would hold 1 MOA with tuned hand loads. A NM prepared M1 Garand with a match barrel would give similar 1.5 MOA accuracy with good lots of M72, and most would improve on that a bit with tuned hand loads using 168 gr SMKs.

I eventually switched to an AR-15 and, with a heavy match barrel, a free float handguard, NM sights and a good trigger, it was also 1 MOA capable.

I've also built Varmint ARs with bull barrels that are sub MOA capable.

 

[nachogrande]

HAVE FUN STORMING THE CASTLE.

Planning on going to war or civilian type target/hunting? As to the noise factor, a short barreled 5.56 indoors vs a 308??? Both are gonna be loud. Define close. For civilian use close, (in a fantasy type engagement) I'll take a hi cap shotgun along with a hi cap semi auto. In the real world, whatever I can lay hands on first.

 

[gwpercle]

I am a reloader and I like accuracy , rifles that can shoot tiny groups at long range make me happy. Rate of fire is unimportant.

The Bolt Action is my vote. I can do more , reloading wise with a bolt action. Bullet weights, powder charges , velocity ...etc.
The semi-auto is limited in ammo due the cycling dynamics of the action.

The bolt may not be the best choice for the upcoming Zombie apocolapse , but I will just have to pick the long range ones off and let the AR guys handle the rest.
Gary

 

[BB57]

I would not call the .223 a poor stopping round.

The M16 was developed with the idea of a 55 gr bullet launched at around 3200 fps tumbling and fragmenting after impact down to velocities around 2700 fps and just plain tumbling at impact velocities down to around 2600 fps.

That made the M193 ball round pretty effective out to around 200m. Where 5.56mm stopping power started to become a problem was at ranges over 200 meters. We made it worse when we adopted the SS109 round in the M855 ball ammunition - a larger, heavier bullet that had a tumbling/fragmentation range of around 100 meters. Then we doubled down with 14.7" barreled M4 which reduced the M855's fragmentation range to about 50 meters.

For civilian self defense purposes, I'd stay away from lightly constructed varmint rounds, but the controlled expansion soft point rounds make a good choice if you need longer range effectiveness. For home defense where ranges are very short, a cannelured 55 gr FMJ is still a great choice as it will tumble and fragment - and it'll start doing that as soon as it strikes dry wall so it has less risk of exiting a structure and killing a neighbor than most pistol rounds. The downside is that a short barreled .223 is gawdawful load, particularly in an enclosed space.


My home defense AR is a brace equipped 9mm pistol firing 115 gr hollow points. They are effective, particularly at 10.5'' pistol velocities, and the noise level is down around 117 dB - compared to 155 dB for a 4" 9mm pistol, and around 160 dB for a short barrel .223.

 

[BB57]

I am a reloader and I like accuracy , rifles that can shoot tiny groups at long range make me happy. Rate of fire is unimportant.

The Bolt Action is my vote. I can do more , reloading wise with a bolt action. Bullet weights, powder charges , velocity ...etc.
The semi-auto is limited in ammo due the cycling dynamics of the action.

The bolt may not be the best choice for the upcoming Zombie apocolapse , but I will just have to pick the long range ones off and let the AR guys handle the rest.
Gary

Despite years of shooting service rifle competition, I'm in general agreement with all of what you've said above.

You have a lot more flexibility in load development with a bolt action, in terms of both powder choice and bullet weight, without having to worry about functioning, bending an operating rod (M1A and M1 Garand), or being incompatible with the rollers in a roller locked rifle like the HK 91, SAR-8, PTR-91, etc.

This is my favorite longer range bolt action rifle, in large part because it's a solid 1 MOA rifle that will put the first round from a cold bore on target and then put the next nine rounds in the same 1" circle. It holds its zero week after week, month after month, and the adjustments on the scope are exact, consistent and repeatable.

Where we may or may not be in total agreement is on the "tiny group" issue. I've evolved to the mindset that "perfect is the mortal enemy of good enough". I used to focus on extreme accuracy - indexing cases, uniforming flash holes and primer pockets, sorting cases by volume, hand weighing bullets and powder charges, etc.

Now, I load on my Dillon 550B and I shoot a lot more and load a lot less. My sole concessions to accuracy are the use of a floating tool head on the 550B to align the cases during the sizing and seating operations, the one time flash hole uniforming, and hand weighing powder charges. I'll tumble my cases with the primer in and I have not cleaned a primer pocket in more than a decade. I'm plenty happy with consistent and repeatable 1 MOA accuracy in a world where the variability in wind and range estimation greatly overshadows the benefits of 1/2" MOA or even 1/4 MOA accuracy.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

.308 or 5.56 or 12ga?

My answer is....

.308 and 5.56 and 12ga.

 

[TXSWFAN]

My Armalite 20" AR-10 was sub-MOA out of the box. Excellent platform and never a hiccup. With a suppressor, it's a great deer/hog/varmint rifle.

The home gun is a POF SBR .308.

 

[LVSteve]

This is my favorite longer range bolt action rifle, in large part because it's a solid 1 MOA rifle that will put the first round from a cold bore on target and then put the next nine rounds in the same 1" circle. It holds its zero week after week, month after month, and the adjustments on the scope are exact, consistent and repeatable.

I read your post multiple times, but I didn't see a type.